Omenbringer

Like most things in this game it is knowing when to apply which tool for best effect. Som'er just benefits from having more tools in his shed. None of those tools (Deck Shaping, Deck Cycling, Out Activation, Bigger Hat Than You, Bayou Two Card) are universally applicable, with the possible exception of Do It Like Dis! (if for no other reason than Som'er with an automatic in his defense duels is one slippery fellow).

I think the major issue with Lure is the long range on tables with out enough blocking terrain (the same can be said of "sniper" models). While I do think their Ca of 8 is one point to high, "cuddling" them is something that needs to be done surgically as a major part of their design is that singular ability.

They have received some "glowing" endorsements on the forums. Pullmyfinger under Wong's entry states; And under their entry states; Seems like a pretty good start without spending a ton of money for other options.

Well honestly it looks like you have the bases covered for Ophelia but Wong is a bit conspicuously missing some of his usually cronies. From what you have posted it looks like all you should really consider buying would be the Lightning Bugs (assuming of course you have the Young Lacroix's totems already). This will give you two Masters and their crews to run with. You can look for Wong's totem on Gadzooks site here.

Despite this being a Guild Sub-forum you would have to include the Guild Austringers in the list of models needing a cuddle, especially if you are going to include the Pigapult (which is far more costly to run turn after turn)

I agree that millions of simulations are better, but still subject to errors from designed parameters. While it is doubtful I could ever change your mind, Deck Shaping, even when done on a minor scale (the type available to every crew via the discard phase at the beginning of the turn) does have a measurable and significant impact on the game. For example simply removing the Black Joker from the decks run (by getting lucky and drawing it into the control hand) will skew the results of the deck. This is why the Red Joker is so often lamented (particularly on damage flips) while the Black is much less so (many players will safeguard that Black Joker in hand until the last guarantied turn). The advantage is felt more keenly by the attacker (who wins ties) than the defender, and when one side can effect the decks composition to a greater degree than the other, is also asymmetric between the two. Though some may see these techniques as counter to one another, I see them as complimentary. Shaping the deck improves its potential prior to draw (even if only "minutely" it is still an advantage), while cycling it renews a depleted decks potential (by resetting the random generator to a near zero state).

Appreciate the work. I agree with this estimation: However I tend to agree with you that there are some errors in the calculations, not that I fault you for it, card math is very different (and significantly more difficult) than a simple die roll calculator (even before you consider cheating and the control hand).

While I value your simulation Math, I still say the reality is very different than your results are stating. Probability also implies that you should almost always draw at least one high value card (11+) into your control hand, but there have been many, many times where nothing above a 7 has come up. For the record again though, I am not alone in seeing the potency of Som'er's Deck Shaping potential, a very competitive environment complained loudly about it last edition and the interaction is unchanged from then. Theory is one thing, reality often another try them out for yourselves. I am curious to see how you came up with this though:

So "localish"

I would agree, not having access to Eternal Fiend really reduces Bad Juju as an option for Zoraida when slumming it in the Bayou. Also to your list of awesome scheme runners in the Gremlin faction are a pairing of Piglet and Hog Whisperer.

No problem. Deck Shaping is where you are actively trying to remove low value cards from the deck for the next turn. The game already features this in a small degree with the discard after shuffle that happens at the beginning of the turn. Usually this isn't that potent as most players don't have many cards to really impact the deck a whole lot. Masters that can draw lots of cards during the turn though can have a pretty dramatic effect on the decks composition for the next turn. Say for example that Som'er has managed to acquire 8 control cards during the turn (drew a handful of crap and had a Gremlin or two die near him for Survival of the Fittest, if they are low value cards, then holding them until the discard phase next turn will remove them from the deck until it is reshuffled. Instead of drawing from a deck of 48 (assuming no control cards to discard from previous turn plus the 6 cards drawn for the Control Hand) you can now draw from a deck of 40 (8 removed during discard, and 6 drawn for the new control hand) with 8 low value cards removed from the rotation until cycled back in during the next shuffle. This will skew your deck away from the low cards and toward the higher value cards. Your deck will now be stronger in potential than your opponents un-shaped one. Here you will want your most important interactions to go early to take advantage of the decks increased potential prior to reshuffling Deck Cycling is also a potentially good technique as it gives you another opportunity at all the high value cards in the deck. It does come with the disadvantage of possibly reintroducing the Black Joker into play as well though so some some consideration is warranted. If however you have managed to draw the Black Joker into your control hand (not all that uncommon actually) then you can cycle to your hearts content without fear of it ever showing up. This is also why the Black Joker appears so infrequently during games while the Red seems to always show up, once a player has it in their control hand there is very little incentive to ever discard it and allow it to roam the deck (the only time I will ever willingly discard it is in the beginning of turn 5). If it is roaming it still isn't that large of a deterrent for me to cycle though, as I am not counting on one good hit to succeed (like an elite Som'er crew build typically does) but a thousand little pin pricks (leading to the old joke "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time). The "death by a thousand bee stings" approach will cycle the deck quickly as most damage flips are going to be at least and each Bayou Gremlin can generate up to 3 damage flips per turn (1 Bayou Gremlin with that Extra AP from Drunk and Reckless tying for success can cycle up to 12 cards, 15 if the target is also Hard to Wound). 3 Bayou Gremlins doing this in a turn and all tying for success will cycle 36 cards (45 if the targets are also Hard to Wound) and guaranty at least 8 damage (assuming the Black Joker pops up). Notice that these extra cards on the Damage Flip also increase the likelihood of truffling out that Red Joker as well. Given the ease with which Som'er can often pull Bayou Gremlins out of his hat early in the game, this can produce some amazing deck cycling potential for the Gremlin Gunlines. I agree that Bayou Two Card can be good in the right circumstances, I just don't often get to benefit from those circumstances. My usual pool of opponents plays near the high side of recommended terrain amounts (which I prefer as well) and as you can see from the above I actively court damage flips. Math and a few others play their Bayou Gremlin's very different from me, they tend to Focus a lot and then shoot utilizing Bayou Two Card for increasing the likelihood of higher damages (particularly for on What if More Powder triggers). I do this as well when it is more advantageous, usually against crews that tend to cluster. Where I can usually benefit from Bayou Two Card is in defense flips, since flips there are very rare. In the end Bayou Two Card is another tool, like the others, available to gremlins, it has its uses but isn't always the answer. If it was it would be complained about a lot more on the forums.

Awesome. Rogueeyes, one day events are usually easier for people to attend. 1) Chris, Ressers, local to area 2) Jay, Neverborn, Canton 3) Creed, Ressers, Canton 4) Kevin B. Ressers(?), Erie 5) Tom, Guild or Outcasts, local to area (?)

Som'er and his boys really love but they also like and . The former allows them to up the damage while the latter allows them to generate more 's. I tend to agree that Bayou Two Card is best utilized on cheatable damage flips where it gives you that 2nd chance at generating Moderate or Severe damage. It is way to unpredictable on other flips, particularly in regards to Defense flips where it has not only failed me but also increased my opponents Margin of Success because of it. Tracking the high cards is really what "Card Counting" is, it is not what is depicted in the movie Rain Man. Though this can definitely help, Gremlin's are usually better served by understanding the potency of Deck Shaping and/ or Deck Cycling techniques. Gremlin's, and especially Som'er, can be built to really excel at both of these. Most turns I can cycle the deck at least once, giving me a second chance at the Red Joker. Deck Shaping requires a bit more work but can pay huge dividends in the early turn. Som'er is a very cerebral Master despite the hilarity of some of his abilities, actions, and interactions. Thankfully he is an absolute blast to learn because of the hilarity of his abilities, actions, and interactions.

Would be great to have you in attendance, if nothing else perhaps we can meet up for some conversation. Updated list: 1) Chris (Slapdrone), Ressers, local to area 2) Jay, Neverborn, Canton 3) Creed, Ressers, Canton 4) Kevin B. Ressers(?), Erie

I dont think all summoners are necessarily an issue, only those summoners who are getting something for absolutely nothing or at a very low investment. Som'er for example is a sterling example of a "balanced" summoner. It requires an upgrade to do, he can summon exactly one model type, he requires one to summon one, the range is fairly short at 6", both target and summoned model come in injured which reduces their effectiveness substantially until healed, and it requires a suit to succeed. Sure he can provide the required suit to ease the summoning but it will cost either his 0 action or one of his Skeeter Totems AP and the discard of a correctly suited control card to do. At minimum Som'er's summoning requires the investiture of 5 SS (2 for the upgrade, 3 for the Bayou Gremlin target), and a correctly suited card. This minimal investment is extremely vulnerable to "sniper" models with From the Shadows deployment who can completely shut it down with the killing of the lone targetable Bayou Gremlin. To do his summoning reliably and maximize the potential (3 "Free" Bayou Gremlin's per turn) turn after turn, the investment is going to be substantially higher at; 2 SS for the Upgrade, 9 SS for 3 Bayou Gremlin's, 5 SS for a Slop Hauler, 1 correctly suited control card for discard, 3 of Som'er's AP plus his 0 action (or 1 AP from a Skeeter that will also add 2 SS to the cost), 2 wounds on each Bayou Gremlin both target and summoned, 2 AP from the Slop Hauler to heal up to 4 of the Bayou Gremlin's back up to effectiveness, and 3 Ap from the summoned Bayou Gremlins due to Slow. Grand total of 16 SS, 1 Correctly suited Control Card, 12 wounds (2 to each Bayou Gremlin, target and summoned, some of which can be offset through healing), and 8 AP plus Som'er's 0 action for 9 SS worth of "Free" models. That is a fairly balanced summons in my opinion.

@Libido Knievel There is plenty of space left (13 spots still unclaimed) and we would love to have you all. The more metas we can get to attend the better preparation it will be for GenCon hopefuls.

Thanks Slapdrone, guess I am going to have to finally get a facebook account.

I am not seeing how exactly he "dies immediately" if you manage to get Bigger Hat Than You off against him, perhaps I am missing something. Again I am not saying Bigger Hat Than You doesn't have "Awesome" potential, I am saying that the bark of that potential is usually much more significant than the actual bite. Yep almost 7 years, I was fortunate enough to have lived in an area that adopted the game early and had a fairly large community thanks to a few of the old Wyrd crew.

I am not discounting that it can be very potent in screwing with your opponents actions, however it can be just as effective in denying your own. Like with everything in Malifaux, Som'er and the Gremlin's in particular, it is a balancing act. On paper it looks like you would always use Bigger Hat Than You in practice it is very different. Interesting that you would mention the Dreamer, as I would consider him fairly well equipped against Bigger Hat Than You. His Otherworldly upgrade provides a pretty good means of refilling his control hand, while sacrificing Day Dreams can provide a means of getting his second required suit for his summoning. Add in his Higher Wp value and his Df/Wp trigger Safe in My Bed which has the required built in, and it is even more unlikely to succeed against him.

I say it because my opponents try very hard to keep it from going off, if they have anything worth keeping. Additionally, you don't always have a 13 in hand when it would be most advantageous to use Bigger Hat Than You. Generally speaking when I have had the cards to guaranty it will go off it would have been a bigger detriment to me than my opponent (either a good spread of higher value cards or desirable suits). In almost 7 years I have rarely had a hand where it was just the one 13 and everything else was absolute crap (all low and of only one or two undesirable suits). Also Som'er tends to want to exploit both ends of the card range (high and low). For example Do It Like Dis! (Som'er and Skeeters) and Defensive (Skeeters and piglets) provide ways to utilize those "crap" cards to great effect. Both of these actions are crucial to running a Som'er crew well and ensuring things happen the way you want them to. Som'er's summoning for example requires a to be successful, now you could hope to draw an 8+ from the deck (or perhaps get another chance it with Bayou Two Card) or you could dump a low and guaranty the required suit across up to 3 castings, increasing its success range dramatically because now all you need is an 8+ of any suit. Also consider that both Piglets and Bayou Gremlin's are required to declare a trigger with their most utilized attack actions (Gore for the former or Boomstick for the latter), some of those triggers come with side effects that are not super desirable. Low cards are again valuable because you can dump them with Do It Like Dis! to always provide an option to choose a better one. Also consider that to be most effective with Bigger Hat Than You you want Som'er to go early in the activation cycle, preferably first so he can dump the most Control Cards from your opponent. This comes with its own set of issues since activation order is another huge part of running Som'er well and this is when your opponent will have the most cards to cheat. If Som'er goes before the Skeeters, who also want access to Control Cards for discarding when it is their turn to go to either Maximize the effective area of Do It Like Dis! or go defensive, then it can greatly effect their usefullness. Lastly, though the range is 18" if you are utilizing the recommended amount of terrain (the updated amount from the 2 player Starter box not the much lower amount from the book, wish they would have updated that when they posted the Free Mini Rule Book), it is usually easy enough to hide the enemy "Leader" model out of LOS (even it is just behind a few other models). My groups generally tend toward the high end of recommended terrain amounts to curb the increased devastation long ranges can wreck on the game, especially from Rotten Belles and "Sniper" models. Bigger Hat Than You is one of those actions that is either feast or famine. When everything is perfect, it is devastating and memorable but most of the time, its bark is significantly louder than its bite. One thing has me a bit confused though: Bigger Hat than You doesn't replace your hand it simply dumps both your opponents and yours. Sure Som'er has access to a few methods of replenishing his Control Hand after this but a lot of them have downsides, such as Survival of the Fittest which requires one of your Gremlins to die within 6" of Som'er, or Old Cranky who denies you the ability to hire Skeeters since he is a Totem. Also I am not a huge fan of Bayou Two Card (I know several other posters love it particularly on Damage Flips), it has a very specific range where it is useful but still doesn't guaranty a better result. To many times it has produced either a similar or less desirable result for me, I consider it another Feast or Famine ability. I would be curious to see if your opinions on these interactions change once you get Som'er in hand and start running him on the table.

@Guildenstern I tend to agree with you that the real power of Bigger Hat Than You is in the potential more than the reality. The biggest thing it has done for me is make my opponent use SS and/or Control Cards to keep it from going off. While I agree with Math that getting a Skeeter is a good thing, it is way more difficult than getting the piglet. Probably has a lot to do with the infinite skeeter summons crap from last edition. Glad they stopped it but wish they would have at least let us keep the extra 2 Skeeters.

Out of curiosity are there any other Social Media sites for Northern Ohio and surrounding areas I should be making these announcements on?

You can always resort to killing a Bayou Gremlin in melee (hopefully getting a Piglet out of the deal) and triggering Survival of the Fittest for Two Control Cards (hopefully getting that ). Unfortunately though if you don't have a to drop for Do It Like Dis! then Som'er's summoning can be a bit more difficult. It can often be worth using the SS to get the though so don't discount it.

Also thanks Strype McClaine that song just became my ring tone. Its so damn happy sounding!!!

So glad to hear that Nathan. Look forward to seeing it, I might have a Gremlin addiction (17 Bayou Gremlin's, 9 Stuffed Pigs, and 9 Piglets isn't excessive right?).