Math Mathonwy

That is one sweet diagram! And it explains the thing perfectly - thank you!

Note that 3" isn't enough to block LOS to the Crooligan himself at it's exactly 3" and "Models can draw LoS up to 3" across [...] obscuring terrain" (RM, page 15). "Almost always" seems like an exaggeration. I believe the original intent behind the question actually was whether floors block it or not.

There's no thread (other than this and Seamus tactica) that mentions both of the those rules.

For Perdita: Leikatun Konjakin Salaisuus For Lady Justice: Tusan Homichi Tuvota For Sonnia: Rikkipää For Hoffman: Unguentum Sabbati

Have the results been posted? Did I miss them?

The sculpt is rather wonky and it's shortcomings are kinda highlighted by the high quality of the paint job. The only slight criticism I have of the paintjob is that the brown metal gets kinda lost in the brown leather. The pants are an awesome colour, though, and the green flame looks great!

Thank you for the reports! One question, though - do you record only wins or do you seriously never ever lose in this game?

Thump-thump-thump-thump-thump. I'm not offended by it, but I certainly won't try to read it. I, at least, post on public forums mostly so that other people would read and perhaps react to what I've written thus resulting in a change of ideas. Were I to randomly choose a colour for my text that would make reading said text an unlikely event in the case of many, I would certainly reconsider. But yeah, keep on doing what you're doing if you feel that it's the best way forward to you. Also, don't bother responding to this with blue text if you wish to engage me further. If you want to write for your own pleasure, then naturally feel free to do so.

Light blue text on white background??? Dude. You really think that's 1) a good idea and 2) somehow cool?

I like your very bright colours. Makes for really striking minis! Aye, this works, but it takes quite a bit of practice (and Werner Klocke minis tend to have huge eyes, so the tutorial makes it look easier than it is). A simpler way to do it is to paint the whole eye black and then two white dots on both sides. It's faster and easier than painting the eye white and doing a black dot. Plus you get the darklining for the eye "for free".

I like the Kin far more than the basic grunts, so my suggestion would along these lines: Outcasts Crew - 40 - Scrap Ophelia Lacroix -- 4 Pool 3 Young Lacroix [6ss] Bayou Gremlin [2ss] Bayou Gremlin [2ss] Bayou Gremlin [2ss] Francois Lacroix [5ss] Pere Ravagé [5ss] Rami Lacroix [6ss] Raphael Lacroix [6ss] Slop Hauler [4ss] Slop Hauler [4ss]

You forgot something very relevant: especially when killing Masters, it's extremely important to win the original flip so that you get to cheat/stone after your opponent has done so. Paired helps in that. Since LCB is often the first to engage the enemy on Dreamer's side, both players will have full or nearly full control hands, which makes winning the original duel of paramount importance. As for Q's analysis, he somewhat randomly changed the comparison from Cb7 vs Cb5 paired to Cb9 vs Cb5 paired with predictable results, so yeah, a fully buffed Lady J indeed hits harder than LCB - surprise of surprises. The difference naturally is, that I've never lost Seamus when playing against Lady J while losing him is almost guaranteed when playing against the Dreamer, so the thing to take home from this is that good melee coupled with insane movement is far, far more deadly than insane melee coupled with average movement. I have no idea what the point of the Lady J vs LCB comparison was, btw. So what if LCB hits less hard than Lady J? That has nothing to do with anything, unless your argument is that LCB is OK because he hits less hard than Lady J. Which is of course a bonkers claim.

Didn't you get the memo? Lelu is a glass cannon and always dies when a combat model sneezes at his direction. But seriously, Reconnoiter is a horrible, horrible strategy, so you really stood no chance from the get go. Now, him killing all of your models is naturally a poweful show, but even Reconnoiter handicapped you massively from the start.

As every Seamus player should be able to tell you, Terrifying is very much board control. I agree that the rest of the abilities are tied up in beatstickyness, but highest Terrifying in the game, with 3" range, coming from a big base is a seriously big control element in this game that revolves around objectives. It can go to math, naturally. I don't currently have access to do proper testing, but a quick Excel testing shows paired being better against Df6 (that I tested against), and naturally paired wins when it comes to the trigger access. I can calculate the exact percentages next week if someone is interested in them, but the difference should be on the small side, though definitely in paired's favour. As a side note, I really, really suggest going with statistics on things like these. It took me maybe fifteen minutes to do a rough calculation (with a million or so random flips) and it really sheds light into these things where even experienced players can be very wrong when going by the gut (especialy when you play the model in question, you more easily remember whiffs than triumphs when thinking about average performance and me most certainly included, mind!).

That's not what Nilus said. He said that aSonnia doesn't require as many stones as the non-avatar version, since she won't be using confiscated lore (an ability that needs an SS to activate) before or after manifesting.

Malifaux is a very skill-based game with a steep learning curve. I have a crazy win-percentage but that's likely to change once the game matures here and the player-base gets more experience. "An unrealistic win record" is entirely possible in this game. Now, it doesn't mean that someone sporting a huge winning streak is always right, but it does mean, that they probably aren't talking complete bull. I'm extremely sorry to have garnered such a reaction. It was not my intention and I do apologize. I didn't mean that you're the only one with the seeming dichotomy, but rather thought that the two posts I quoted illustrated the trend. Once more, my apologies.

But that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Very, very few non-Master models in this game can take two hits from Lelu and live. Taking into account the poison and the autowounds and the list is downright miniscule. On the whole, I'd say that Neverborn do have the edge when it comes to choosing their fights, so I'm not quite convinced about the "very easily" part of the quoted paragraph. But on the whole, I feel that this discussion is concentrating on how to deal with Lelu and that isn't the point, really. He is of average survivability. His damage potential is the one that's over the top. To illustrate, if his damage track was 10/14/18 everyone would likely agree that it's too much. But yet, all the current claims on how he can be dealt with would still be valid.

These two comments seem to be at odds with one another. All in all, there seemed to bloom a strange dichotomy between wanting to steer away from "theoryfaux" but yet not take people's word when they proclaim something about their successes. I realize the reluctance that some people feel about win percentages and such posted online as that data, even when true, might not tell the whole story as the playing group can be extremely skewed due to local culture or player base, for example. That said, Calmdown has actual proof about his playing merit having won a tournament with the Dreamer last weekend (unless the whole UK scene is in on the vast conspiracy), which shows that he does know what he talks about at least to some extent. Now, naturally he should still back up his opinions based on stats and rules and "theoryfaux" but there is merit to listening a bit more openly to people who tend to win tournaments.

to be fair to Karn, he often does admit that things are out of balance (like the Dreamer). He just seems to end up defending the status quo a lot of the time. I have a feeling that there is a non-trivial amount of talking past one another in these conversations

I at least have always been complaining about them (and about Stitcheds). The difference to old Alps is that they at least can be dealt with more intelligently than just waiting for the opponent to make a mistake so they don't create quite as negative a play experience. You say this as if I have somehow changed my mind about it or something. To my understanding, I've always held this opinion and have posted several times to the effect. I'm not convinced that they are balanced. If I played Neverborn, I couldn't see myself taking them for anyone except Dreamer and (a very big) maybe Pandora (though not really seeing the point for her). Of course Coppelius spawns them, so they can be seen on the table with other Masters as well, but due to the Insignificant I'm just not seeing the utility anymore (other than for Dreamer, naturally). "potentially very balanced"? :confused: Well, if you ignore the thing that is over the top, then yes, I agree, Lelu is extremely balanced but I'm not sure that's a useful way of examining him. There are models with similar SS cost and similar function and Lelu outstrips them damage-wise completely ridiculously. He isn't especially fragile for his cost, really, he just seems that way because the enemy has to kill him before he gets into melee so they throw everything at him to do so. Similar to Samael (who is more fragile, mind you). I'll grant you that it is an extremely common misconception in minis games that too good things are balanced because the enemy has to kill them and so devotes all their resources to doing so and succeeds.

Wait, Calmdown, your avatar actually isn't a pic of you? You aren't Kris Kristofferson? I'm disappointed! Congrats on the win, though!

Yeah, but making models usable by multiple masters is good business and makes more players happy. Dreamer is, arguably, the only Master with such problems in this regard. I mean, guild constructs work better with Hoffman, for example, but the synergy isn't on the level of "infinite movement" so making them usable by other guild Masters while still keeping them balanced in a Hoffman crew is a lot easier than keeping Nightmares usable outside of Dreamer crew but balanced when fielded with that specific Master. Note though that I'm not convinced that Lelu and Lilitu are correctly balanced in a Zoraida crew (the only Master they don't have obvious synergy with) let alone with the other Neverborn Masters, mind you.

So if you concentrate on killing the twins, you kill them easier than the kids when not concentrating on killing the kids. And you do this is because the twins are more dangerous. And, somehow, this makes the kids as good as the twins? :confused: :confused: :confused: That has to be the weirdest argument in favour of some minis I've ever seen.

Ah, makes way more sense that way around

So she used an SS for a completely useless additional flip (as no card in the deck could save her) and didn't use the SS to resist damage even knowing that the Red Joker was still in the deck?