Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Dolomyte]

I am going to guess that we felt the earthquake coming and then that set off some trigger inside us to become incredibly defensive.

I thought it might just be my house being old and crappy, especially considering in the middle of it the girl across the street walked out to her car, got in, and drove off.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I guess my real question too would be "are the players who have issues with Neverborn single faction players" and "the ones who play the over powered lists only playing Neverborn,or do they loss regularly when they play other factions?"

In our area most players play multi factions and everyone that plays Neverborn well tend to play all their crews well. And as I mentioned before the only list that I have seen that is outright wrong is the Alp Bomb, but almost no one is arguing that. We just are not sure what will fix that without making either the dreamer or alps worthless.

That said after the Alp Bomb was dropped everyone decided it wasn't worth playing unless someone asks to play against it.

And personally I think everyone would benefit getting or borrowing someone else's crew to see if their theories are correct. I know I can counter any of the lists I play becuase I know their weaknesses, just like there is now twenty different threads on how to counter Pandora. Play these lists and models you think need to be fixed for a few games. And be objective.

[Mentat_Canis]

I have to say nix I agree with you that the Forum is very balance, rules oriented this week and I think that is because most people are waiting for book 3.

I also see you read my thoughts on falling back in the what would you change about the rules. Personal opinion but ya I love this game I think as a whole it is balanced I love my arcanists and never feel underpowered with them. I guess it is the natural evolution of the game becoming more competitive is more balance questions coming up.

Well I just keep enjoying the game and out of your list of things I would tweek 3 models and most would not change the game. I like thinking about what would happen with models if they played differently too.

Ok I have lost my train of thought so yes its fun reading when people say stuff is broke but lots of stuff in this game are broke and it makes it amazing.

[nix]

I have to say nix I agree with you that the Forum is very balance, rules oriented this week and I think that is because most people are waiting for book 3.

This is a good point that I had not considered. Having had the book since Gencon, I have become fairly well versed with the new models and begun to forget a fair number of others have not even seen the whole book yet.

[Dolomyte]

I guess my real question too would be "are the players who have issues with Neverborn single faction players" and "the ones who play the over powered lists only playing Neverborn,or do they loss regularly when they play other factions?"

I personally play guild rarely, neverborn often, arcanists often, and outcasts rarely. Prodigal punk, Therapist, Jimp, and myself own almost every model, so we play through pretty thoroughly. We're all pretty good, but when playing one of the cheese lists for neverborn its a very uphill battle for someone else to win. If we play knowing the list is coming and build specifically to beat it, we typically can beat it.

In our area most players play multi factions and everyone that plays Neverborn well tend to play all their crews well. And as I mentioned before the only list that I have seen that is outright wrong is the Alp Bomb, but almost no one is arguing that. We just are not sure what will fix that without making either the dreamer or alps worthless.

So far I've seen the following suggestion for alps, if you like one more then others, or dislike one more then others, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

a. make alps rare 3 (which has an impact on players who bought more then one pack)

b. make alps 4 points

c. make feed on dreams only do 1 damage, regardless of the number of alps present

d. change smother so that its a single willpower flip at no minus

e. change smother so that its a single willpower flip at a max of one negative

f. change smother so that the required number is 10 instead of 12.

g. make the alps 2 wounds and insignificant

That said after the Alp Bomb was dropped everyone decided it wasn't worth playing unless someone asks to play against it.

And personally I think everyone would benefit getting or borrowing someone else's crew to see if their theories are correct. I know I can counter any of the lists I play becuase I know their weaknesses, just like there is now twenty different threads on how to counter Pandora. Play these lists and models you think need to be fixed for a few games. And be objective.

Again, my concern is not a casual environment, its the competetive one. while there are counters available for everything, typically for the neverborn filth list (nekima and the lel) and for the alp bomb, you need to build your list around stopping it.

If you do that, and your opponent is not using one of those lists, your at a significant disadvantage. Whereas if you build a list figuring the resser player will bring kirai, even if he uses someone else your not going to be completely out of the match.

[Wulfen]

I am nearly gnawing my fingers off staying out of this conversation and all the flaws I see in the variety of arguments here.

I guess I would just like to ask a simple question though. How large of a game are we playing all these "NB are unbalanced" games at again? Are we balancing at 25, 30, 35, 40 ss? A different level?

And all these statistics are from tournaments that were run based on the way the game is balanced, correct? Declare faction, pick strategy, buy crew, pick schemes? Wait, I asked that already and it was glossed over.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled griping about how OP neverborn are.

The only flaws I see that are some people fought tooth and nail to keep Neverborn exactly where they were on the power scale. Dreamer and Book 2 NB stuff was actually much worse in testing, but even changed a little, it wasn't enough, and those of us that tried to prove that in game testing and reports were countered at every turn.

We were all so intent on trying to balance the crap out of the Dreamer and his minions, and fighting a few die-hard Neverborn players about it, that we weren't able to concentrate on another troubled Master, Hamelin. I don't know how else to say that Neverborn still has serious balance issues.

You talk about gnawing your fingers off? I guess maybe I should have fought and posted ad nauseum to boost Hoffman instead. I'd have had better luck than convincing passionate players that their chosen faction was simply more than it should be.

[McNs]

As someone who PTs for another company, there's one big glaring hole in the logic I'm seeing here:

- NB presumably were PT'ed for full games (i.e. - 6 turns) and balanced around that. Per Karn et al (and per common sense), NB are the "we hit hard but can't take a punch" faction.

- The metric for balance that everyone seems to accept is tournament placement. However, most of the tournaments I've seen haven't been allowed to go to a full 6 turns, usually due to time restrictions (notably: the Masters event at Gencon). Given that NB's weakness is attrition and players aren't being given a full game to take them to attrition, it seems NB may have an up due to the format.

- Doesn't it seem logical that some of the problem may be NB models and some of the problem is in the tournament format/way we're measuring balance?

FWIW: I think Lure ought to prevent strikes if you're already in melee (Bells usually won't care; they're happy to just take a swing). Alps need a look at too, though with some thought to not make them terrible.

Just my 2 cents.

[Q'iq'el]

That is quite a valid observation about game length in tournaments. Not only games are supposed to last 5 turns minimum, but they could extend to 7 or 8... actually there is a crew (Showgirls) which has an ability to extend the game further. To artificially shorten the game must affect the balance one way or another.

Is it that hard to make a tournament with fewer games, but ample time to finish them?

[Dolomyte]

That is quite a valid observation about game length in tournaments. Not only games are supposed to last 5 turns minimum, but they could extend to 7 or 8... actually there is a crew (Showgirls) which has an ability to extend the game further. To artificially shorten the game must affect the balance one way or another.

Is it that hard to make a tournament with fewer games, but ample time to finish them?

If you want to find a "true" winner then yes it is. Typically if you limit an event to 32 people, to find an absolute champion you need 5 rounds

32 undefeated

16 undefeated

8 undefeated

4 undefeated

2 undefeated (winner is winner)

If you were to limit the event in size you could obviously have less rounds. It becomes a bit more confusing when you end up with odd numbered tournaments, as sometimes you will have three undefeated people. Who's the winner then? two will play each other, one person will play someone with a loss. Strength of schedule will judge harshly on that second person.

[Q'iq'el]

You could easily make it group elimination?

But the thing is most tournaments don't use elimination, because that means the players dropping in the turn 1 pay, fly, stay overnight etc. just for a single game. That's a waste of their money, time and quite a disappointment too. So you make everyone play every game and sum up the points. The more games, the better the accuracy, but you *can* do it with just 3 games if you have to.

If you want to guarantee full games, anything more than 3~4 games a day begins to look dubious.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Dolomyte]

You could easily make it group elimination?

But the thing is most tournaments don't use elimination, because that means the players dropping in the turn 1 pay, fly, stay overnight etc. just for a single game. That's a waste of their money, time and quite a disappointment too. So you make everyone play every game and sum up the points. The more games, the better the accuracy, but you *can* do it with just 3 games if you have to.

If you want to guarantee full games, anything more than 3~4 games a day begins to look dubious.

sorry if I was not clear there, people are not getting eliminated, well, they are being eliminated from the chance of winning, in a 32 person tournament with 5 rounds barring some tie shennanigans you should end up with an undefeated winner.

[Fading Memory]

I'm not even going to talk about the Neverborn. I am going to show some of the power other factions have.

Outcasts will always win Shared Deliver a Message.

You use Ophelia, a Pigapult, her Totem, Pere, and whatever has Companion Kin, max out your soulstones and take Thwart, and Gather Soul Stones. You Companion the Pigapult With Ophelia chuck whatever models you need to deliver the message, they have been companioned, so it doesn't matter how far they are when they actually get to activate and deliver the message. Beat up on Ophelia so her totem can kill her next turn, and use Drain souls to remover your models from the game, have the totem kill Ophelia and there you have it, no models in play during turn 2 and 6-8 vps while denying your opponent 4vps. You can't loose.

Nicodem is all powerful

I really didn't want to mention this as no one has seemed to realize it on the fourm. I cant find it anywhere.

This works better in higher SS games.

What you need is Bete, 1 nurse, 1 vulture, dogs, and A-Nico. (Sebastian and Mortimer are a good addition).

Turn 1

Have a dog do nothing but pass. Then have someone kill a dog and pop out Bete. Cast reactivate and the +cb spell on Bete. Have Bete activate and cast Deprave Tactics and give her the Paralyze effect and kill the vulture so she gets Fast and bury her. Have Mortimer create a corpse counter and create 3 mindless zombies with Nico.

Turn 2

Have Nico go into avatar form. Have a nurse give a dog + to Walk and give it the cannot die sacrifice at end of next activation. Have the dog move up to someone oh lets say a large group or enemy master. The dog dies and out pops Bete. She can cast her 0 spell to get :+fate on the Damage flip and she gives out Paralyzed and she has reactive and with pumping out dogs with Sebastian and mindless Zombies so you can out activate your opponent, you can always have a dog to pop out Bete where you want her. She can Paralyze all your opponents models or give them slow. Bury her and do it all over again the next turn. It requires a lot of successful casting to work, but if done there is nothing to stop it.

Every Faction has its "power house" tactics and models, but that is what makes Malifaux so exciting. You don't know what your opponent will do, or take, or plan. I haven't looked at Guild or Arcanists yet.

Ok I will say one thing about Kidnapped. If your opponent is taking that every game, I would say he doesn't realize the concept of the game. Few Strategies are about "kill, kill, kill." It is far more effective to announces schemes that counter act what it is your opponent is trying to do to achieve vps from the Strategy. If he/she is just trying to "kill" you every game, he/she is being very mundane with the game and unwilling to "play" the game. I played a 35ss game recently with the Dreamer and only made 6 actual strikes in the game and half of those were against Lady justice and she did not die (there was no way I was going to kill her and I knew it). Kidnapped is not the be all end all for the Neverborn, I see it as being very situational.

[Dolomyte]

I'm not even going to talk about the Neverborn. I am going to show some of the power other factions have.

I would really prefer you did not, as I was trying to keep this discussion about the neverborn, but for the sake of completeness, I will discuss the issues you brought up.

Outcasts will always win Shared Deliver a Message.

You use Ophelia, a Pigapult, her Totem, Pere, and whatever has Companion Kin, max out your soulstones and take Thwart, and Gather Soul Stones. You Companion the Pigapult With Ophelia chuck whatever models you need to deliver the message, they have been companioned, so it doesn't matter how far they are when they actually get to activate and deliver the message. Beat up on Ophelia so her totem can kill her next turn, and use Drain souls to remover your models from the game, have the totem kill Ophelia and there you have it, no models in play during turn 2 and 6-8 vps while denying your opponent 4vps. You can't loose.

Perdita and the family can do this as well, but with obey. Also, doesent stuff have a chance of dying when it gets sent out by the pigapult? Also, the pigapult cant companion with ophelia, so your strategy would not work. the opponents master could simply kill the gremlin sent.

Nicodem is all powerful

I really didn't want to mention this as no one has seemed to realize it on the fourm. I cant find it anywhere.

This works better in higher SS games.

What you need is Bete, 1 nurse, 1 vulture, dogs, and A-Nico. (Sebastian and Mortimer are a good addition).

Turn 1

Have a dog do nothing but pass. Then have someone kill a dog and pop out Bete. Cast reactivate and the +cb spell on Bete. Have Bete activate and cast Deprave Tactics and give her the Paralyze effect and kill the vulture so she gets Fast and bury her. Have Mortimer create a corpse counter and create 3 mindless zombies with Nico.

Turn 2

Have Nico go into avatar form. Have a nurse give a dog + to Walk and give it the cannot die sacrifice at end of next activation. Have the dog move up to someone oh lets say a large group or enemy master. The dog dies and out pops Bete. She can cast her 0 spell to get :+fate on the Damage flip and she gives out Paralyzed and she has reactive and with pumping out dogs with Sebastian and mindless Zombies so you can out activate your opponent, you can always have a dog to pop out Bete where you want her. She can Paralyze all your opponents models or give them slow. Bury her and do it all over again the next turn. It requires a lot of successful casting to work, but if done there is nothing to stop it.

Every Faction has its "power house" tactics and models, but that is what makes Malifaux so exciting. You don't know what your opponent will do, or take, or plan. I haven't looked at Guild or Arcanists yet.

It requires a lot of successful casting to work, and hitting some triggers, and makes the assumption your opponent walks all his models in a giant brick. I dont think its as valid in game, but I have yet to play with avatar nicodem, so I cannot judge yet. This is one of those things where I would wait and see, as opposed to the neverborn issues, which existed before book 3, and have been tested in play.

Ok I will say one thing about Kidnapped. If your opponent is taking that every game, I would say he doesn't realize the concept of the game. Few Strategies are about "kill, kill, kill." It is far more effective to announces schemes that counter act what it is your opponent is trying to do to achieve vps from the Strategy. If he/she is just trying to "kill" you every game, he/she is being very mundane with the game and unwilling to "play" the game. I played a 35ss game recently with the Dreamer and only made 6 actual strikes in the game and half of those were against Lady justice and she did not die (there was no way I was going to kill her and I knew it). Kidnapped is not the be all end all for the Neverborn, I see it as being very situational.

It may be situational, but its a situation no other faction has access too, which is a 2 vp scheme that does not require you to announce it. Your opponent cannot plan to counter it because he will not know you have taken it. You can try to stop sabotage (also very easy to accomplish) simply on the fact you know what terrain they are going to try and tag.

[Justin]

I would really prefer you did not, as I was trying to keep this discussion about the neverborn, but for the sake of completeness, I will discuss the issues you brought up.

Hmm...

I'm fairly certain this totally works. Ophelia can companion any gremlin with one of her 0 actions, and I'm pretty sure the pigapault is a gremlin (don't remember, as I haven't used it since playtest since the model isn't out). And, although anything riding in the pigapault has a chance of dying, you could launch a number of family members over there. You don't care if the first one or two die, since you are going to kill them off anyway, and eventually it's going to work.

[Dolomyte]

Hmm...

I'm fairly certain this totally works. Ophelia can companion any gremlin with one of her 0 actions, and I'm pretty sure the pigapault is a gremlin (don't remember, as I haven't used it since playtest since the model isn't out). And, although anything riding in the pigapault has a chance of dying, you could launch a number of family members over there. You don't care if the first one or two die, since you are going to kill them off anyway, and eventually it's going to work.

This could be a rules forum thing, but I thought her 0 action companion ability worked the same way as liliths. which meant that model activated next.

However, I thought actually companioning took precedent.

In example, you need to declare the order of all models activating via companion

In this case Ophelia , young, young, young, pere, etc.

Ophelia activates, uses her 0, the rest of the companions go, then the catapult goes.

Need ratty to weigh in

[Math Mathonwy]

I noticed earlier today that I must be picking the wrong threads in the forum to read. Just picking 3 random posts, I discovered the following about Malifaux (today)

--snip list--

That's a very dirty tactic - taking a list of things by different people out of context and exaggerating the individual claims. Not cool. And this following the previous "you are all so wrong but I can't say anything cause I don't wanna"-type of message.

You have valid points but try to avoid those sorts of tactics, please. They undermine your argument and serve no purpose whatsoever.

I guess my real question too would be "are the players who have issues with Neverborn single faction players" and "the ones who play the over powered lists only playing Neverborn' date='or do they loss regularly when they play other factions?"[/quote']

I play everything but Neverborn (the aesthetics don't appeal to me) and I hardly ever lose. I still think that NB are currently out of balance in that they have a number of OP minions, OP synergies, extremely good Masters, huge caches for no reason and, finally, a crazy good scheme that only they can take.

Seriously, whenever someone tries to argue that Kidnap is fine, it boils down to "these other schemes are also easy and if the Kidnapper is dumb it is fine." Having access to an extra very easy (if played at the correct time) additional scheme is absolutely huge. Schemes are a great mechanics and could be an awesome way to balance factions and Masters without affecting their cards but currently this has not been taken advantage of with the most powerful faction having the easiest schemes.

[Justin]

This could be a rules forum thing, but I thought her 0 action companion ability worked the same way as liliths. which meant that model activated next.

However, I thought actually companioning took precedent.

In example, you need to declare the order of all models activating via companion

In this case Ophelia , young, young, young, pere, etc.

Ophelia activates, uses her 0, the rest of the companions go, then the catapult goes.

Need ratty to weigh in

Hmm...

Yeah, that's a good question to ask.

[Fading Memory]

The Ophelia trick was a friend tactic, and after reading the rules it def sounds like it will need a rule Marshal on it.

I'm not even going to talk about the Neverborn. I am going to show some of the power other factions have.

I would really prefer you did not, as I was trying to keep this discussion about the neverborn, but for the sake of completeness, I will discuss the issues you brought up.

However, bringing up other factions is a great counter argument to what Neverborn can do. Showing that other factions have access to "over powered" models and tactics shows balance. Its the "well you can do this, but I can do this" and that is hard to argue against.

Take Lady Justice. She casts her (0) spell and gets Fate. She kills a model and gets Inspiring Sword play. Then take a Death Marshal near death and Pine box her near the end of the turn. Next turn kill the Death Marshal. LJ pops out, she casts her (0) again and add Onslaught to the list of effects on her. That's 11+ Cb and she hasn't even drawn the card for the duel or added a soul stone. And with Onslaught she really will onslaught your models.

And let's not forget good old near impossible to kill Colette Du Bois. That's an automatic two points with the Bodyguard Scheme. Then there are the Stratagies she will most likely win: Contain Power, Distract and Slaughter.

In Slaughter, Stiched Together denies an opponent 5ss but Colette denies 10ss. Which one has the clear advantage?

And before you say it, yes you can take three of them in scraps. However, your opponent can cheat Gamble Your Life, and kill it with your spell. That means taking 3 in a Slaughter game is very risky, as you can easily loose you models, leaving your opponent with all his AP to kill the other models that you rely on to do the rest of the dirty work.

Every faction has its models that people will complain about. Neverborn have a lot of mechanics they can play around with and that is probably why they are so appealing to people.

[Dolomyte]

The Ophelia trick was a friend tactic, and after reading the rules it def sounds like it will need a rule Marshal on it.

However, bringing up other factions is a great counter argument to what Neverborn can do. Showing that other factions have access to "over powered" models and tactics shows balance. Its the "well you can do this, but I can do this" and that is hard to argue against.

Take Lady Justice. She casts her (0) spell and gets Fate. She kills a model and gets Inspiring Sword play. Then take a Death Marshal near death and Pine box her near the end of the turn. Next turn kill the Death Marshal. LJ pops out, she casts her (0) again and add Onslaught to the list of effects on her. That's 11+ Cb and she hasn't even drawn the card for the duel or added a soul stone. And with Onslaught she really will onslaught your models.

And let's not forget good old near impossible to kill Colette Du Bois. That's an automatic two points with the Bodyguard Scheme. Then there are the Stratagies she will most likely win: Contain Power, Distract and Slaughter.

In Slaughter, Stiched Together denies an opponent 5ss but Colette denies 10ss. Which one has the clear advantage?

And before you say it, yes you can take three of them in scraps. However, your opponent can cheat Gamble Your Life, and kill it with your spell. That means taking 3 in a Slaughter game is very risky, as you can easily loose you models, leaving your opponent with all his AP to kill the other models that you rely on to do the rest of the dirty work.

Every faction has its models that people will complain about. Neverborn have a lot of mechanics they can play around with and that is probably why they are so appealing to people.

A valid counter-arguement. I think my issue with neverborn is they have the majority of the powerful things. In this thread and the other Colette has been mentioned, Kirai has been mentioned, Perdita has been mentioned, and Hamelin has been mentioned as all being powerful representations of their faction.

the neverborn have access to game-breaking mechanics and interactions the other factions don't have access to, and not just one. as a neverborn player I am not proposing nor do I support Cuddling them into oblivion, which is what I think you might fear. I also dont want their uniqueness or tricks taken away. However certain interactions

(Alps + Dreamer) (Lelitu + Nekima) are vastly overpowered and I think need to be resolved down to a normal power level. Colette is very hard to kill, but no harder then von schill with a librarian, Leveticus, or hamelin. You could even throw in perdita as being very hard to kill. I am very tired to the point of not seeing clearly, so I will read your Lady J tactic when I wake up in about 10 hours, dont think im ignoring it.

[Fading Memory]

As a neverborn player I am not proposing nor do I support Cuddling them into oblivion, which is what I think you might fear. I also dont want their uniqueness or tricks taken away.

That is kind of a fear of mine. I play call of duty and with the Black Ops. People complain left and right about things because they are unwilling to look past their ignorance and arrogance. I'm not implying anyone on this forum have those qualities. I've just seen it before and to keep the fan base happy things get changed. I love other factions, but I want to max out Neverborn before I move on to the next.

As for the Bete tactic. If you do it, take Kill Protegee and Grudge. That's 4vp.

[Math Mathonwy]

However, bringing up other factions is a great counter argument to what Neverborn can do. Showing that other factions have access to "over powered" models and tactics shows balance. Its the "well you can do this, but I can do this" and that is hard to argue against.

Countering that NB are OP with "Ophelia can win this strategy and there is nothing anyone can do about it" is so far removed from balance that I can't even think of an apt metaphor for it. Having an autowin button for specific strategies for all the crews is a nightmarish situation and if Ophelia indeed works that way, then something needs to be done as that is beyond stupid (and I play Ophelia).

Now, sadly, I'm quite convinced that someone will come along and defend the autowin formula presented "because if you win initiative with the Dreamer he can cross the whole battlefield and Alp-bomb the Ophelia crew to death" and I will shake my head in frustration. *sigh*

As for the Nicodem and Lady J tactics, those aren't difficult to counter at all and are both entirely valid (unless I'm missing something extremely crucial about what aNico brings to the table) and non-problematic plays. Neither is anywhere close to the NB problems that were put forth.

[AdrianMills]

From what i am seeing it isn't certain models are un-balance but the synergies between certain models that is now the problem.

Alps taken with other master are not un-balanced so Cuddling them just because the dreamer can drop them anywhere is detrimental to those who take them with other masters.

Lelitu with out Nekima is fine as you need to flip the card to attempt to get the trigger but with Nekima she gets the suit but it is a 13ss sink for Nekima and there are better models out there in my opinion.

Cuddling something just because it is particular strong in one circumstance is bit much which was the point I was making earlier with the repeated trigger.

As a neverborn player I have only used kidnap once my usual scheme is Reclaim Malifaux, kidnap as a scheme just doesn’t appeal to me but that is just me.

I agree that slaughter as a whole needs a look as where ever possible I will attempt to spend a soul stone to reflip as it is the one strategy I don’t like.

Edited August 24, 2011 by AdrianMills

[Math Mathonwy]

Alps taken with other master are not un-balanced so Cuddling them just because the dreamer can drop them anywhere is detrimental to those who take them with other masters.

How is that a problem? There's loads of minions that are weak at best unless they are in a crew with a specific Master. I would go so far as to say that that sort of forced synergy has been one of the most important design philosophies of Malifaux since the beginning. Now, the fact that Neverborn tend to have their most powerful models being awesome under every master doesn't make it so that every one of the their minions should be that way.

All in all, trying to balance the minions to be worthwhile with every Master while having huge synergy bonuses with one is a fool's errand at best and extremely harmful at worst.

Making Ice Gamin worth it for Colette is something that I'm not at all interested in.

[AdrianMills]

How is that a problem?

It isn't at the moment but if they get cuddled just beacuse on the alp then yes i think it would (depending how it was done of course)

In the past I have used alps wth zoraida and wicked dolls and the synergies where good. But in the end there where minions that where better for what i wanted to do.

[Q'iq'el]

How is that a problem? There's loads of minions that are weak at best unless they are in a crew with a specific Master. I would go so far as to say that that sort of forced synergy has been one of the most important design philosophies of Malifaux since the beginning. Now, the fact that Neverborn tend to have their most powerful models being awesome under every master doesn't make it so that every one of the their minions should be that way.

All in all, trying to balance the minions to be worthwhile with every Master while having huge synergy bonuses with one is a fool's errand at best and extremely harmful at worst.

Making Ice Gamin worth it for Colette is something that I'm not at all interested in.

Arguably, the Book 1 Neverborn models were the most specialised of the lot. While many Arcanist, Guild and Ressurectionist masters exchanged their minions freely, Lilith has been locked into Nephilim crew with Waldgeist as an option, Pandora was all into Woes and only Zoraida had some hiring freedom.

Other than Mature Nephilim, Teddy and the Doppleganger (all to limited degree), there were very few models which were good under every master in the NB faction.

Perhaps Book 2 swung it the other way, but I feel the models are still operating in their own subgroups. Is someone likely to grab Stitched, when he goes for Nekima and the Siblings? Are you going to see Collodi and the dolls in any kind of crew? If anything Neverborn enjoy now interoperability which is only getting close to where other factions (not in their entirety, of course) were in Book 1.