Woe is me...

[ddot]

Met a friend at the bar tonight, and beer made me wonder...

Could Link remain active until it is resolved? Could a Sorrow link to a model that has already activated, and remain linked until that model completes a Walk Action or ends its Activation [its next activation]? I had mistakenly thought that Nino's "In My Sights" ability ended in the Closing Phase, when it certainly does not.

From the general timing rules, I'd say no. The only thing I could think is to find a way to re-activate the linked Sorrow... which I really don't see any options for Neverborn.

[karn987]

*bump for change to Link* This needs fixing on the sorrows =D

[Krysno]

Hey Karn you were spot on. Sorrows are more of a burden than a boon with a Link that ends in the closing phase. On a happier note, one of them survived a round of Perdita's shooting in a game last night. I might name him "Droopy the Bullet Dampener".

[karn987]

*Bump* Still need something done about sorrows and at least their link. Need the old ending back.

[alemon]

I'm confused....can the sorrows not move on their own?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I'm confused....can the sorrows not move on their own?

Yes, but some of their key abilities rely on Link to work. Without it they are over priced and just deadweight. The movement aspect, for sake of getting across the board, was nice but of little importance.

[karn987]

*bump* Still need something done about link ><

[Omadon]

The only good thing about sorrows was the 1 damage from lost wp duel, but you had to be within 3 inches to make that work.

Actually - they're woes, which makes them succeptable to unhealthy relationship, which the doppleganger can copy, and then give you a million extra mimics, but that's not particualrly relevant to why I think the link cuddle was silly.

I understand where you're coming from karn, but I think that we should give this Sorrow change some time to better understand how they work now. I suck at playing the Legion of Sorrows, but they're so much fun I can't switch it up to a different crew.

This isn't a change, this is a flat cuddle. This kicks them squarley in the teeth. After link was altered to be only walks/EoA, that was almost enough. The main issue with the whole list was Panda's ability to zoom across the map and obliterate everything with impunity. Now that she can't incite/pacify friendlys. This cannot happen. After that - I don't grasp why Wyrd are Still Cuddling Panda? She needed one good kick in the woosh turn, and I personally think even that cuddle was lop-sided. (All you really needed to do was reword Link so that you couldn't link to models with link, and then kick the wording of emotional trauma so that it included Panda in the name). This change basically makes the sorrows useless. In a copmetetive sense anyway. Any kind of important turn, where Panda is threatened - you don't have time to carefully re-link every single sorrow to it's respective target before you do something important. In some cases - that will allow your opponent to activate near enough every model they have. This is, in effect, killing an ant with a bazooka.

Having now reached page two of this thread, reading Karn's post makes me feel like I'm repeating alot of what he's said However, I'm comitted now. And I think I can sum most of this up by one major request. What exaclty was the logic behind this cuddle? What was the thought process? I don't understand what caused them to be cuddled so badly after the first change to link. That alone (Alongside Incite/Pacify cuddles) took Panda down more than enough pegs to be playable. If we could just see the working behind this, maybe we would understand? =\

[Wodschow]

...

(All you really needed to do was reword Link so that you couldn't link to models with link, and then kick the wording of emotional trauma so that it included Panda in the name).

...

Actually they changed that part of link too

Before you linked to a model and could only link to a single model.

Now both models are linked and models can only be linked to one other at a time.

[Krysno]

Poop. I missed that (0)Link specificity. I guess that means I can't link two Sorrows to Candy any more. Well, the models still look cool...

[Omadon]

Also, not only does this cuddle effect her, it also totally ruins the things collette uses, the mannequins. They're permanently slow! Their options are move up to something and link, and then do nothing, or stay rooted to the spot and cast. Mirrors requires them to be nearby a model to be useful, and that means that you need to set up the activation the turn before, and not move either of them. How much more cumbersome can it possibly be?

[alemon]

I'd rather the mannequins have link than not. You link, then you cast the mirror spell. Then you companion the showgirl and move her up with the mirror aura attached via a link mannequins.

If they didn't have link, THEN they'd have a choice between moving into position for the next two turns, or casting a spell.

[ddot]

I'd rather the mannequins have link than not. You link, then you cast the mirror spell. Then you companion the showgirl and move her up with the mirror aura attached via a link mannequins.

If they didn't have link, THEN they'd have a choice between moving into position for the next two turns, or casting a spell.

OK, haven't been able to pick up RP yet, but is the ability to cast Mirrors a (1) or (2) action, or an (all) action?

If it's an all action, you can't link and cast mirrors the same activation. If you were able to re-activate the manniquin, then you could link the first activation, then cast the second that game turn.

This is the heart of the debate about link going on here. When link used to be potentially infinite, it wasn't really an issue. Now that it ends in the closing phase, it is.

[Q'iq'el]

Haven't painted my crew yet, so I haven't played with it either, but in theory at least Mannequins need their Link a lot and it works for them OK.

First of all, they not only have shorter Wk range than Performers, but they also have a nasty penalty in non-open terrain (Clumsy) and they are actually Slow on the top of that!

If Mannequin walks at all, it can't do anything useful and it will still fall behind. If it does something useful, it can't move, so only Link can keep it in range of the Showgirl.

Link is (0) and it's the only way to ensure Mannequin stays anywhere close to performer you want it to boost. The other (0) gives Mannequin Use Soulstone, but given its mechanics that is pretty much a desperate measure and it won't IMHO compete with (0)Link much.

All Mannequin's spells are (1) - it wouldn't be able to use them at all otherwise.

Mannequins are essentially Showgirls' buff-bots. Either they do Mirrors for defense or Tricks of the Trade to boost Showgirls' damage (they can also block opponent's model from striking). All the buffs are 2~3" range, so the Mannequin has to keep up with the Showgirl to be of any use.

I also think Mannequin's survival depends on being Fixed frequently and that requires a showgirl within 2" too.

It is also pretty obvious, that the Mannequins and their Showgirls should activate in pairs - first you Link the Mannequin and turn on the buffs you think you need, then you activate the girl and actually move the pair. Because most Showgirls attack while walking (no charging there), the Mannequing should be more or less always close enough to provide its buffs.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

It hurts Mannequins a bit from what it was during the test. But they at least still work.

Sorrows though, well they just don't work any more as a lot of people have said in chorus with me. Thats the model that REALLY needs it changed back to the old way. Because I would never recommend them to anyone the way they are now. They are just not worth it at all. Several other models in the game have link, but none relied on it so completely and utterly as sorrows and Pandora. So I would dearly love to see all the link models get their mojo back and actually be really good again. Thats why I keep bumping this thread. I've played with the new link over and over again and I can not come up with a single good reason for it to stay as it is that can hold even a small candle to the reasons why to change it back.

[Natty]

It hurts Mannequins a bit from what it was during the test. But they at least still work.

Sorrows though, well they just don't work any more as a lot of people have said in chorus with me. Thats the model that REALLY needs it changed back to the old way. Because I would never recommend them to anyone the way they are now. They are just not worth it at all. Several other models in the game have link, but none relied on it so completely and utterly as sorrows and Pandora. So I would dearly love to see all the link models get their mojo back and actually be really good again. Thats why I keep bumping this thread. I've played with the new link over and over again and I can not come up with a single good reason for it to stay as it is that can hold even a small candle to the reasons why to change it back.

It's not that link needs to be changed to make sorrows effective, it's the ability to copy the spell of someone they are linked to that needs to be changed. I very much doubt they will change link because all of the new linking models are based on the wording that it ends at the end of turn.

[karn987]

It's not that link needs to be changed to make sorrows effective, it's the ability to copy the spell of someone they are linked to that needs to be changed. I very much doubt they will change link because all of the new linking models are based on the wording that it ends at the end of turn.

Im sorry Natty but I think your dead wrong. It does need to be changed to make them effective and their are lists of reasons why throughout this post and scattered around the forums. I'm not hte only one saying this. For sorrows their most critical abilities rely on them hitching a ride up field and being linked to help protect the extremely fragile Pandora and her martyr woes.

I have a rather large and in-depth Tactica I keep updated for Pandora. So I spend a lot of time working with new changes that effect her and new models and well.. I have not found a single reason to recommend sorrows any more. I've read every post I can find detailing peoples experiences with them with the new change and it's all bad. I hate it because they were my favorite minions for her and its a huge shame, especially for people who own several packs of them.

If for no other model then the sorrows, Link needs to go back to it's original end time for them. That is the core problem and what most people are talking about. Their ability to cast spells they are linked to is a minor gravy ability but is not their core ability. It really doesn't even matter and I think most Pandora players could care less about it compared to what else the broken link does to them.

Give the sorrows a special ability that lets their link at the original and proper time of when they end a turn out of b2b an they are fine. The ability to cast a link models spell can be removed, it really doesn't matter to them. But that link end time is so insanely critical that I would call it their most important ability short of their Emotional Trauma.

Not to jump down your throat Natty, but that really just doesn't matter compared to the rest of what the change did. Yes its annoying they can't even use it any more, but that is not the core problem. Focus should be on Link and fixing it at least for the Sorrows and not that ability.

Edited August 27, 2010 by karn987

[Wodschow]

I wish to remind everyone that Mannequins have Companion(Showgirl).. So the activation order problems hardly ever occur.

Even then I imagine that it might sometimes be advantageous to let a lone mannequin sit back far from your other models. That way you can throw enemies away with Disappearing Act.

[alemon]

I don't understand why, for a zero action, you should be able to move with another model until something pushes you out of base to base contact. I can see it as a zero action you can choose to activate each turn, but otherwise they might as well not have a movement rate.

Edit: I understand, it changes the Sorrows. But it also changes other models, and how they work. Maybe that's why they did it.

Edited August 28, 2010 by alemon

[Q'iq'el]

Edit: I understand, it changes the Sorrows. But it also changes other models, and how they work. Maybe that's why they did it.

I agree with you on the movement and how Link works with most models. I also think it being a (0) action you have to re-activate each turn makes it balanced.

With Sorrows however it wasn't a case of a change, but of one of their talents becoming broken.

If you make an (all) action, you cannot do anything else that turn. Not even a (0) action IIRC.

Sorrows have an (all)Siphon Magic spell that requires them to be linked to a model they Siphon Magic from. But to use it, they cannot use their (0) action.

Before you'd Link them to a model in one turn and then Siphon Magic in the next.

If I understand correctly, Siphon Magic works for models in Base contact now, so the link isn't necessary... I don't understand exactly how that differs to the previous situation and why it is broken. Before you'd (0)Link in one turn, do two other actions and end up in base contact with the model you linked to at the beginning of your next activation, when you'll do (all)Siphon Magic and lose your link (as you can't re-link after (all) action). Now you end up in base contact with your model and if you activate before that model, you can do exactly the same. Is the fact that the model can walk away if it activates before the Sorrow that much of a cuddle? Why can't you activate Sorrow first?

Anyway, Sorrows are very cheap models. For a price of Terror Tot you get a model who has much more utility (except terrain control, but you can swap them for something else for these Strategies.) and a very powerful spell on top of that. To be able to use this spell only very situationally as a sort of ace-in-the-sleeve seems about right to me, given the price of the model. Perhaps there are better choices for Pandora and it that case perhaps those better choices are too good?

Edited August 28, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[notmikehill]

I can understand that people are annoyed with the change, but I see them being used in ways other than linking and siphoning. Their trigger is decent at draining hands and candy can heal sorrows if need be. Also they can use a spell that gives paralysis with a high crow in hand.

[karn987]

@Everyone,

Please don't miss what the real problem is with sorrows right now. That is that they were 100% dependent on Link ending when it did. It looks to me like they were designed and tested to function that way and changing something that is such a core ability to them is wrong. Link's original end time was more critical to Sorrows then any other model. It was critical to them, Pandora, Candy, and Kade. They all depended upon it. Pandora's entire crew depended upon it.

The link change may be balanced to some other models, but to Sorrows it is just a cuddle. That is the problem. It seems like they missed something very huge when they were discussing this change. Which can happen. But Sorrows need the old end point back. Don't change it back for anyone else. Just give Sorrows a new ability which adjusts the end time for them. Yes the card and the book printing would be screwed up. But the change to link already screwed that up so to fix it, you have to make another change. Sadly (and I think a massive mistake since the change to link was instantly met with anger) book 2 was printed with the changed link. So rather then reversing the change, I'd say just fix it for sorrows.

But everyone, don't miss the real problem with sorrows and that is the end point for link. Everything boils down to that and we need that end point back. It's really that simple and that's what I keep pushing for.

Yes sorrows can still have a use. But it's like saying a car with 3 wheels is still useful. They are not what they where and they were not what I payed money for. I would not have bought them if they had link this way. They are of no use to Pandora with this link. For balance and the community of Pandora players, this is a huge kick in the teath.

Edited August 28, 2010 by karn987

[Krysno]

In the meantime, I have not finished my dissection of the Sorrow minion. I just need to find someone who will play back to back games with me for..... six straight days or so.

[ProdigalPunk]

I don't really ever see Pandora played, and all I keep hearing is what needs to happen, but I am not sure why. Would it be ok if they could companion like the mannequins do? That way Pandora could go first and still have all her buddies linked? Is it something that just effects Pandora, or are Candy and the like effected too? I mean I know they are affected, but does it hurt them as much as Pandora seems to be suffering. Could they replace the (0) version of link and just have it be a passive thing. "At the beginning of each turn this sorrow may link to one model: <insert link text>. Could they work like the Seishin and just pop back into base contact at the end of the activation?

I guess mainly what was Wyrds intention and what is a deal breaker for the other side? See if there is not a solution in the middle.

[alemon]

Or how about meeting in the middle? I don't like the idea of a zero action that you only take once during the first turn and forget about for the rest of the encounter. What about a link that ends at the end of the next activation of the model you're linking to?