Woe is me...

[ddot]

Note: I made a Mali-faux Pas and posted this before understanding the changes to Link, so take most of this with a grain of salt for your food for thought. Thank you.

Apologies for the bad pun.

After 6-7 games with Pandi's crew, I feel like I have played my Sorrows without realizing their potential. They've done the obvious things: EmoStressing nearby enemies, damage sinking for Pandi and the Kids.

Using thw Kids and a bunch of Sorrows in a pandi crew is just so obvious that it seems unintuitive to use them elsewhere. It wasn't til I wrote a 30 SS list tailored for Slaughter that I realized I had been overlooking something that should have been really obvious.

:stupido:

Using Link plus Siphon magic to make the Kids spellcasting more effective. Lure and Self-Loathing are great Spells, but sometimes useless against Masters with Soulsstones. Siphon Magic allows the Sorrow to use Soulstones in the casting, so you could potentially cheat a bad casting flip AND buy an additional flip for what could be a pretty high total.

I can already anticipate a bit of naysaying so I'll throw these tidbits out:

1. "But Sorrows are 4 :masks casters..."

So is Kade. And Candy is slightly better with 5 :masks . Those two can't use Soulstones for those times when you absolutely, positively have to get a potentially unbeatable casting total.

2. "Uncheatable soulstone flips are no guarantee ofa great, or even a good card..."

Point taken, but not having the soulstone flip guarantees that you definitely won't get a good flip.

3. "There are better uses for SS; ie, extra flips on master's def/resist/dmg prevention/healing flips/etc/etc,,,"

Yes, but sometimes an unexpected Soulstone use can really catch someone off guard. Besides, the Sorrow may Use Soulstones; it is not required to. Use at discretion.

Okay, so obviously the question is, the best way to pull this off? Since Siphon magic is an (All) action, you'll want to Link early and Link often to models you don't plan on making unusual placement effects.

(My interpretation of the Errata is that pushes are now a Move action, so this wouldn't break the Link. Kade's Where's Teddy? as a switch/placement effect, would. If I'm wrong on this, feel free to slap me down.)

I see a few good options here. The Suicidal Kids who step in, with Sorrows in Tow, up close to enemy models to cast Wp resist spells for the Emo Stress Wds (that bypass Armor, etc.) In a pinch, they can do the damage sinking thing if someone gets close enough to the Kids.

However, if they're that close and the Sorrow is around with an upcoming activation (or the next turn), activate it ASAP and Siphon a spell. Lure is really neat for this in theory; cast Lure, the enemy pushes toward the Sorrow. If you did this right, the model will take 1 Wd from EmoStress and the Sorrow will get to make a (admittingly soft dmg 1/1/4 ) Doleful Grasp attack... barring any Black Jokers, that's min 2 Wds (more is Sorrows and/or Pandi are around). The enemy model attacks Kade... you Martyr the attack to the Sorrow... if he bites it, Kade is still alive to avenge him.

Using Candy's Self-Loathing in the situation is just wrong, especially if you get if to go. The key here is to activate the Sorrows linked to the Kids/Pandi first to get the Siphon actions off and leave them as viable damage sinks if they need to be used that way.

Obviously, this tactic would be game-breaking with Pandi, but is also viable with Lilith or Zoraida. Sure, models Immune to Influence pretty well laugh at this without Pandi around, but the possibilities in certain Strats and Schemes could be too useful to pass up.

I like Lure if the opposing crew gets Claim Jump or Recon. You need to get that last model out of the scoring area? Lure them out, or take a chance and Self-Loath it to death. If you get Slaughter, use Lure to draw that one significant model ever closer to its demise, instead of allowing it to hide in a corner. Obviously I think Lure is a more useful spell, but Candy has some real possibilites with Sours action as well. (Poison also ignores armor, etc.)

In a non-Pandi crew, I'd opt for Kade over Candy in a </= 35 SS game, but anything larger and I'd seriously consider both. (20 pts for both Kids and 2 Sorrows, +3 for additional Sorrows, which I'd have to consider the Strat... if I get Recon, definitely not. Assassinate, I might bring one or two more.)

Thank you, and any feedback, particularly if you're not a fan of Linking to Pandi and the Kids, is appreciated.

Edited July 31, 2010 by ddot

[TimeLapse]

Woe is us for real, I just read this

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13697

before reading yours and it looks like that link ends at the end phase and thus you cant use Siphon magic on the same turn you are linked anymore, The offical ruleing was that you can cast a spell of a model in base contact now instead of linked, its in the thread.

When will the Cuddling of panda's list end!!! So to even use Siphon magic you need to get in base contact and wait till the next turn and hope that the target of your spell wont move out of range.

Woe is us... Woe is us indeed.

[ddot]

.

Edited July 30, 2010 by ddot

[ddot]

Okay, I believe Siphon Magic is still a useful ability. A rules marshall has confirmed that Life Leech and Siphon Magic only require the Sorrow in question to be in base contact, not linked.

Okay, so Link went from Broken to Broke.

I will refrain from having this removed in case anyone wants to play with the pre-extra errata rules.

Edited July 30, 2010 by ddot

[notmikehill]

The cuddle could be considered useful, since Baby Kade could lure a sorrow into walk speed of another model you want to siphon the magic from, without having to activate the sorrow first. Granted an eight of :crows does kinda bite but if you got one it's definitely worth a shot to try.

[Natty]

Sorrows were always overrated in my opinion (well, maybe not when you could zoom Pandora across the board with a first turn kill, but other than that cheatey action).

I always felt like sorrows, against any good opponent (and if you aren't fighting a good opponent you win anyway, so your list doesn't matter), are just such a big target and go down so easy that they aren't worth it.

So pushing wound onto them wont work 90% of the time because the sorrows get targeted anyway (rarely does terrain work perfectly to hide your sorrow and still let you attack enemies properly).

They let people hit your harmless / high defense / Pandora with blasts without having to target them. Their cast is low and if they try to use their own spell it takes crows, which are much better used for Pandora making people fall back.

The only good thing about sorrows was the 1 damage from lost wp duel, but you had to be within 3 inches to make that work.

They are insignificant to boot.

I just never liked them. They always underperformed. I mean, would you rather have 2 sorrows or a Kade? Kade every time.

Would you rather have 3 sorrows or a Candy+1 extra soulstone? Candy every time.

3 Sorrows or a Teddy? Give me the Teddy please!

I don't know, I just never feel that they were worth the points. Honestly, I only use 1 now and then because I spent a lot of time and remodeled the sorrow that is pointing his finger so that it is flipping off the opponent (I reshaped its arm and cut some fingers off, adding new ones).

[Krysno]

I've been trying to figure these Sorrows out today, I mean "really" find their sweet spot. In the past I've only used them to a limited extent toward damage mitigation via Martyr, and WP duel damage augmentation with Emotional Stress and Melancholy.

I think that Sorrows belong up front and personal with the opposing crew. All of their abilities require close proximity to the enemy. Given their modest defense and high card requirement to pull anything off with a good chance of success, I'd say that they might be best used with the expectation of getting them killed. If you can get one Sorrow to do 2 points of damage to the enemy and disrupt the other player a little [by attracting their attention to killing the sorrow], they've done their job.

I used to get bummed out when a Sorrow died so easily before accomplishing anything at all. Maybe not directly accomplishing anything is their niche. Send them out front and into the enemy, cause as many WP duels as you can while they're around, and find comfort in the fact that they are insignificant when they die. If the opponent's attention is on a Sorrow, then it isn't on Candy, Pandora, or Kade. If their attention isn't on the Sorrow, it works as a light "Proximity DoT".

I think that the recent rule revisions to Link, Siphon Magic, and Life Leech support this idea. A sorrow can now Life Leech multiple models if it can get into base contact with them. If multiple Sorrows gang up on a model, you can Siphon Magic to use the same spell more than once -and- Siphon Magic can now be used on the first turn of the game [this could be handy for casting Dementia on Pandora to get her out of the gate faster].

With the change to Link, an opponent might be more inclined to change his activation order to get a model out of base contact with a Sorrow before the Sorrow has a chance to Leech Life. It's like a psychological "Incite". A free action. An opponent disruptor. You can also take disengaging strikes against them when they try to move away. While the strike does no damage, the Sorrow's Misery Loves Company trigger could force them to discard a control card while holding the model in place and denying them an action point. Sounds like Crowd Control...

Sorrows don't live long, but they do help your significant models live longer. Toss them out there, keep your distance from them where is used and remember that they can't help you toward your strategy or schemes anyway.

-I always thought of Sorrows as a bunch of balloons that Candy and Kade carried into a fight to confuse the enemy...

[ddot]

^Some interesting thoughts there Fivepipe. This is what this thread needs; fresh thinking on using Sorrows. Having a killy model activate before its crew's Master can start throwing around buffs can be major.

[karn987]

Im just really annoyed that they don't work well any more. That last line for the special end time was extremely critical to how they work. It seems like a huge mistake to cuddle Link that hard when a model is so reliant on that ability to work. Still hoping Wyrd looks deeper into this and sees what some of us are seeing. ><

[Krysno]

I understand where you're coming from karn, but I think that we should give this Sorrow change some time to better understand how they work now. I suck at playing the Legion of Sorrows, but they're so much fun I can't switch it up to a different crew.

With the old method, the only way to break Link was to cause a push on the linked model outside of its activation so that no base contact existed in the closing phase. Now, with the new method, Link breaks automatically in the closing phase. It does sound like a drastic change, but I think it mostly affects consideration toward activation order. If you activate that Sorrow before the model you want to Link to, you can keep Link going as before. The only change then, is that you cannot use Siphon Magic with a model you're trying to Link with.

In exchange, Sorrows can now Life Leech multiple models if they can get into base contact with each. The good news here is that the Sorrow's controlling player controls the push generated by Link and can attempt to bring models into base contact if they are close enough.

I don't know if this change is ultimately good, bad, or neutral. I would love to hear your specific experiences with Link, Siphon Magic, and Life Leech since the change in the rules occurred. I think that if we pool our thoughts here on the forum, we can figure this kind of stuff out as a group.

[Krysno]

^Having a killy model activate before its crew's Master can start throwing around buffs can be major.

I like this ddot, you're thinking outside the... thing that Pandora carries around... This goes with the third point in your first post, catching someone off-guard with a Sorrow soulstone flip. You're talking about the psychological gaming that gets me all excited [especially when someone pulls something off on my crew that I didn't even expect. Or those "damned if I didn't" moments]. This is the stuff that makes me say "crap" with a grin, "well played".

On a different note, how do your sorrows fare when Linking to Pandora now? I've stopped doing it because they're easy to target and get left behind when I push outside of my activation. I now only link them to other minions, mostly to get them up the field as quickly as possible.

In regards to the damage sink with Martyr, would you say that the Sorrow is a better Martyr than the Doppelganger or Candy? The Doppelganger and Candy can't link to ensure base contact, but they both have double the wounds and can heal to mitigate incoming damage...

I'm all over the place tonight. That tournament today got my gears turning and the questions flowing~

[ddot]

I like it when you're all over the place.

Using The Doppelganger as a Martyr seems useful, especially 1. with the revisions to Martyr making the martyred model the new target of the attack (rather than a damage shunt ala Hordes) and 2. The Doppler's ability to mimic talents, ie Armor, Hard to Kill, Hard to Wound, etc. Paired up with Candy's Sweets action, the Doppler/Candy combo could be a ball of tank. Not the best use for most situtations, but useful in others (ie, move blocking a Claim jump/ treasure marker path). Plus, in a pinch, you could mimic Candy's Martyr and have the Doppler martyr Candy. :vb_devil:

Candy might also be a better damage sink than a Sorrow, but she's still a bit squishy. The only nice thing is the Regret trigger if you can get it off. It at least keeps one model from being able to make furthur attacks this turn.

I don't have anything new regarding Sorrows themselves, but maybe figuring otu how to run the rest of the crew around them will put them into place naturally.

[Melnibonean]

...A rules marshall has confirmed that Life Leech and Siphon Magic only require the Sorrow in question to be in base contact, not linked.

This may be so but it doesn't appear in any errata at this stage. Therefore at the time of writing both abilities are useless.

Considering the Cuddling perpetrated on Sorrows I would think their SS cost should be reduced to reflect their limited usefulness.

[karn987]

I understand where you're coming from karn, but I think that we should give this Sorrow change some time to better understand how they work now. I suck at playing the Legion of Sorrows, but they're so much fun I can't switch it up to a different crew.

With the old method, the only way to break Link was to cause a push on the linked model outside of its activation so that no base contact existed in the closing phase. Now, with the new method, Link breaks automatically in the closing phase. It does sound like a drastic change, but I think it mostly affects consideration toward activation order. If you activate that Sorrow before the model you want to Link to, you can keep Link going as before. The only change then, is that you cannot use Siphon Magic with a model you're trying to Link with.

In exchange, Sorrows can now Life Leech multiple models if they can get into base contact with each. The good news here is that the Sorrow's controlling player controls the push generated by Link and can attempt to bring models into base contact if they are close enough.

I don't know if this change is ultimately good, bad, or neutral. I would love to hear your specific experiences with Link, Siphon Magic, and Life Leech since the change in the rules occurred. I think that if we pool our thoughts here on the forum, we can figure this kind of stuff out as a group.

Ok.... sorry about this but... /rant

I've played several games with this cuddle to link and to the sorrows and I've just not enjoyed them at all. I found they were not worth their SS and they actually made the game harder for me rather then helping out at all. It all leads to an air of this was not properly tested before being put into place.

Sorrows 100% rely on their link to last more then just the turn they set it up. Its obvious from the way Pandora and her crew is set up. Especially for Pandora her self. If you've played Pandora, one of the first things you realize generally is that she needs to activate first some turns. You'll go to great lengths to assure this is happening. But what this means is you can not waste activations on sorrows linking them up to her to get the needed damage buff either. Its stupid, just plain stupid.

With you now have to waste activations just to link the sorrow up and doing nothing else with them your getting hosed 2 fold. Your activating a model before Pandora when you may need to do her first. Your also wasting the activation of the sorrow in most cases. Sorrows ranges are low and they want to get within 3" of models so they can apply their aura for more wd loss from failed wp duels. This is how they function. They can do things from further away, but they have a small chance of pulling off any of their spells that they want to move in to gain even more impact from getting one off. Sorrows rely on being able to hitch a ride forward via the model they are linked to. Pandora would push up field via Incite/Pacify and get herself and a few sorrows into position of 3" from the enemy. She would then start layering on her spells causing good amounts of damage compared to the other crews. Honestly, Pandora causes a lot of damage to a large number of models per turn. But her damage to a single model per turn is a little low compared to most masters. Now this is solved by her Sorrows which seem to be built for this exact reason. They dramatically increase he damage to a single target and sometimes to several. This is a HUGE HUGE part of how she works. You want to have them in place for when you cast your spells and when your going to force a large number of Wp duels. BUT with the current broken wording on link, they will almost never be there. The new wording for when they follow up is great, it feels like this is what it was always meant to be. The problem is the new end point just doesn't work for these models at all. It screws up Pandora's activation order and will get her killed when she needs them linked to her the most. They provide a layer of protection for her and a layer of attack.

How would Lady J felt if she had to spend an activation to draw her sword. Or Seamus to reload his gun. Or Leveticus a activation to power up. How about if Lady J's Reposte and Df were gone and lower and it took an activation to bring them up to their normal levels. Ridiculous huh? That is what Pandora is facing now. Its extremely clumsy to use Sorrows now, they are not worth their points any more, and I find my self getting really annoyed when I try to use them. They just don't work well any more and its a huge shame because they worked perfectly before. Perfectly. Very few things work that well, but they were doing exactly what they needed. They weren't to strong, they weren't to weak and they were this great sorta double edged sword for Pandora in that they gave opponents an easy target to bounce blasts off of. Its a huge shame that now they, well basically suck.

Yes, you can move them on their own. But they are slow, they have virtually no chance of surviving an attack, and they have a short range of effect and an even shorter range of maximum effect. This all points to the fact that they seem designed to piggy back along with a model, get dropped off, and do their job from their. Otherwise they probably should have 2 higher Wk and have Fast or something.

This is how I feel about them what now and what my experience using them has lead me to. Before I would have a hard time deciding if I wanted to bring just 2 sorrows or if I wanted more. Now I have a hard time justifying bringing even one. Sorrows are just plain cuddled right now. I really can't put it another way. I know Im being really negative about this, but its hard to be positive when you get a raw deal. Right now, Pandora players got a rather raw deal. Especially since I own a bunch of Sorrows I may never use any more. PP did this to me during the switch to MK 2, I have a few hundred $ in models I will probably never use again and models that are blatantly useless. It sucks to have that and Im really hoping Wyrd wont do this. Im all for updates and errata, but this one breaks a model. Its not a good update if it does this.

Wyrd does an extremely good job with balance and responding to their player base. Im really hoping they are looking at these posts and thinking about this. I would love to hear about why that last line was left off because it really seems like a mistake. I can't think of a good reason to remove it, but I can come up with many reasons to keep it. So I hold faith in Wyrd and EricJ to make the right decision in the end. Maybe Cuddling the sorrows is the right decision but since we haven't heard anything from them concerning why this was done, there isn't much else to go on. So Im just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping they will get to this after Gencon (I feel really bad for all the Pandora players going to Gencon, good luck guys!).

[karn987]

This may be so but it doesn't appear in any errata at this stage. Therefore at the time of writing both abilities are useless.

Considering the Cuddling perpetrated on Sorrows I would think their SS cost should be reduced to reflect their limited usefulness.

Yeah thats the other thing. I can't play that at my store unless its in the errata. We only use forum rulings for rule interactions (99% of what you get on the forums). Model and rule updates need to be in errata's before we can use them. The same is true of Tournies I think... doesn't Wyrds own tourny policy prevent you from using the update unless it is in the errata?

I would much rather see them fixed their their SS goes down because their is now a gaping hole in how Pandora plays. Its kind of an obvious hole to when you look at her abilities and the sorrows.

[Melnibonean]

I would much rather see them fixed their their SS goes down because their is now a gaping hole in how Pandora plays. Its kind of an obvious hole to when you look at her abilities and the sorrows.

Agree.

I'm one of those players that like to try different crews, different tactics and different playing styles. I've seen posts about using Pandora with terror tots, Kade and Teddy just for the killy effect but I didn't purchase Pandora for that reason.

If I was just interested in having a crew designed to kickeveryones @ss and smash them then I'd take Lilith and 5 Young Nephlim for 30ss. I want to play Pandora as she was meant to be played not by replacing broken Sorrows with other minions more suited (play-style and theme-wise) to other masters.

Like you Karn. I don't like the idea of having models that I paid for and lovingly painted sitting in a box waiting to be sold on to the next chump.

To the powers-that-be: Please un-break Sorrows.

[tenabrae]

I still think sorrows are fine as damage absorbers.

[Melnibonean]

But they can't absorb much damage. Why take a model whose only duty is to die quickly? Those 9ss for 3 sorrows can pay for Teddy or the Hooded Rider +1.

I really like the Sorrow models (my favorites to paint in the Pandora list) but I won't be using them if all they are now useful for is getting killed. Besides, any opponent that knows how useless they now are can just ignore them and bump them off at their own leasure.

[TimeLapse]

An intresting Idea, would be to make the sorrows summen only models and alow Pandora summen them.

Be a spell on Pandora

(0) Feelings of woe

(CC:15:masks:masks/ :Rst: WP/ RG: 12)

Summen Sorrow Linked to target model, this Sorrow must be in base contact with Target model.

Now there good again, and they are still the same as the errata. Costing you a zero action makes it so that you can only cast it once per turn and your totem wont be able to cast it.

You can make Sorrows summon only or leave them costing 3. You can make them rare 3 if you are worried that they would become a swarm army.

But thats would make them useful at the same time limiting your spells that pandora can use and how they work since they will start with slow.

Just an Idea.

-Andrew

Edited August 4, 2010 by TimeLapse

[karn987]

An intresting Idea, would be to make the sorrows summen only models and alow Pandora summen them.

Be a spell on Pandora

(0) Feelings of woe

(CC:15:masks:masks/ :Rst: WP/ RG: 12)

Summen Sorrow Linked to target model, this Sorrow must be in base contact with Target model.

Now there good again, and they are still the same as the errata. Costing you a zero action makes it so that you can only cast it once per turn and your totem wont be able to cast it.

You can make Sorrows summon only or leave them costing 3. You can make them rare 3 if you are worried that they would become a swarm army.

But thats would make them useful at the same time limiting your spells that pandora can use and how they work since they will start with slow.

Just an Idea.

-Andrew

HUGE Issue though... Pandora NEEDS her 0 actions 100%. She can't spare them, not without getting instinctual. The solution is to fix Link or to give Sorrows a special rule that lets them use link with the original ending that they were designed to work with. Anything else is just going to be a hack, which is a shame.

I really hate Cuddling ><

[Krysno]

Sorry, Double Post. See post below.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Fivepipe
People came from everywhere and I got very confused.

[TimeLapse]

hmm yeah, I guess it would be better as a 1 level spell with higher casting costs of needing a 10 or more of masks.

But yeah its all sorts of nurfed so I think Im done for Pandora untill i see something that makes her better, I am going back to focusing on guild and Ramos.

[Krysno]

Nice writeup, Karn, you've got some solid observations in your post. I would agree with you on many of your points. I started playing Pandora just a short time before they changed Link, but I do miss the original Link-breaking conditions.

When I first saw the errata to Link, I thought that it was a change [not a replacement] and that the original ending time stood. I was corrected two weeks ago when I played a game at the LGS. I had hoped to be able to figure it out for the best, because I love the Sorrows. The models are rad and their abilities can be a lot of fun in an unconventional way. I played my first game with "closing time (0)link" yesterday, and this replacement is not easy to get a handle on [as karn has explained above].

One thing that I do appreciate is the ability to deploy a Sorrow in base contact with Pandora to Siphon her Dementia spell, and then cast it on Pandora for a more productive first turn. I know that the Doppelganger or a totem can be used to this end, but being able to use a model I take for almost every game is nice.

That said, it is markedly more difficult to get the most from the Sorrows with my current understanding of the new Link rules. After the game I played yesterday, it is obvious that the new Link rule [Link ends in the closing phase] directly affects the activation order of Pandora's crew more so than the activation order of her opposing crew. If I want those Sorrows to be up front when Pandora hits, they have to activate first for Link. This presents the very problem Karn covered above. None of Pandora's abilities carry over to the following turn. Everything she has ends in the closing phase [except the Mental Anguish trigger]. If she doesn't activate early, then the only benefit she can get from her actions and spells is the damage inflicted from failed WP duels.

The other problem I'm trying to wrap my head around is that if a Sorrow is linked to Pandora and she pushes toward the enemy, the Sorrow won't link up to her in time to be of any help. This leads me to believe that I shouldn't link Sorrows to Pandora anymore. They're not worth Linking for the sole benefit of absorbing damage. I need fast minions that can get the Sorrows to the enemy before Pandora gets there...

eh, I have to go so I can't finish this post. I'm not trying to bash the new rules here, I'm just trying to understand them better. I will agree with those above who liked the longer lasting Link, but the change is only making me want to 'get it' more intensely... There's got to be something to it... Right?

[karn987]

Ehh the problem is... I don't think there is anything at all. If there was, one of the Wyrd guys would have come in already and mentioned it. They do that usually, and their general silence on this really reinforces that this was just a cuddle. I think it was a mistake, maybe they didn't realize how badly it would effect Sorrows and Pandora, but its a huge blow to them. There is a small boost for the sorrows with the better use of Link and it having the unit that is linking move into b2b at end of a move or activation. But that is heavily out weighed by the broken timing for the sorrows who rely so completely on link lasting more then one turn. Now they can never really get up front (Trust me, Ive tried really hard to make them work). They can't even be effective body guards any more because they drag the whole crew down like a lead weight. I just don't see a single positive note over-all to this change. *sighs* Oh well.

Im just biding my time and waiting for Wyrd to set things right. Or at very least say something on the matter. Untill then, Pandora is probably going to be shelved... she is just not playable with her core set any more, its a shame really. Sure I could play her, but it just wouldn't be a lot of fun playing a master with her key units being cuddled. Let the waiting game begin!

*twiddles thumbs*

[Krysno]

Met a friend at the bar tonight, and beer made me wonder...

Could Link remain active until it is resolved? Could a Sorrow link to a model that has already activated, and remain linked until that model completes a Walk Action or ends its Activation [its next activation]? I had mistakenly thought that Nino's "In My Sights" ability ended in the Closing Phase, when it certainly does not.

I'm not trying to stretch. I'm trying to be thorough ; )