Arcanist crew sizes.

[Raresterror]

Greetings everyone.  I have a question about crew size for Arcanist masters. Some of the masters, at least to me, seem to run towards the side of smaller elite crews. Like Ramos for example. What about the other masters? What is the average amount of activations for each arcanist master? Thank you in advance.

[KingCrow]

I usually play Sandeep, Mei Feng, Colette and Marcus (although I do own and have played with all the Arcanist Masters) and I've found I usually bring around 7-8 models.  I bring a beater and/or tank, a controller, a peon or two and a few scheme runners.  This is of course supplemented with summons from the Masters that can summon.  Starting with 7-8 models seems the norm now-a-days and allows for a good game with the ability to oppose your opponent.  It is very possible to run masters as more elitist crews, especially those that summon like Ramos as they can off-set their starting lack of activations.  I think I've seen upward of around 14 models in a Ramos crew on the board at one time.  It was impressive.  

[Squirrelich]

For another data point, I almost always have 8 for Mei, Kaeris and Ironsides. I feel lacking if I stop at 7 without a specific reason and while sometimes I can squeeze in 9 it isn't very often. Ramos I will drop under that to 7 or even 6, but have more activations then the other Masters anyway due to summoning and reactivate. Been to a few non-local events and have learned that I'm nothing special, so as I said just another data point and take it as you will.

[Raresterror]

Thank you for your responses. That was exactly what i was looking for.

[retnab]

Never less than 6, usually 7, most I think I've run is 9 and that was a bit of Fire Gamin spam with Kaeris to see how it'd go  

[hydranixx]

Arcanists have lots of expensive models that are so good you're happy paying for their enormous price tags. This means it's usually rare to see more than 8 models per crew. But sometimes, extreme scheme pools call for extreme crews.

When there's lots of Scheme Marker based schemes in the pool, particularly Set Up, Search the Ruins or Covert Breakthrough, I'll happily crack out a 10 model crew with Kaeris.

2 Malifaux Raptors, Malifaux Child or Eternal Flame, Arcane Effigy, Gamin, Performer, Large Arachnid, Firestarter with IE, Carlos with PP & SD. There's 3 or 4 SS left for Kaeris to take her upgrade.

Grab and Drop + Flaming Angel enables the entire team to drop Schemes wherever they're needed with minimal effort. Carlos can isolate or delete problem enemy models all on his own, while the Arachnid and Performer can actively eat enemy Scheme Markers to deny them VP, or help to get rid of your own Scheme Markers if they get in the wrong place by accident. 

[dancater]

Crew size is actually a discussion about activation control I think.

Ultimately if it was bot for 'activation control as a thing' then elite expensive crews vs moderate size balance crews vs cheap model spam is actually a debate on soul stone cost effectiveness and that is a different discussion.

So the question is really what is an acceptable Arcanist crew size to compete in activation control against other factions, do we have other means of activation control and if we abandon or play for activation control what are the +/- in list selection.

So I think its safe to say there is five forms of activation control:

• List build model count
• List build special rules/upgrades
• In game summoning for your crew
• In game destruction or neutralization of opponents crew
• In game multi-activation rounds

So Arcanists

• List model count - it appears that the general cross-faction thought is <7 models is small and elite and >9 models is numerous, so 7-9 is about the 'standard crew size'.  Arcanists have a bunch of superb expensive models and several really useful high-cost mercenaries which eat crew stones fast so its is fairly easy to field 5 or 6 models or sit on the lower normal (7) side.  However we also have a number of useful cheap models notably the Raptors at 3SS and a bunch of 4SS gamin and beasts and such which mean we can if we desire fill out a few extra spots.  Generally I aim for 8 activation's and am good anywhere in the 7-9 range.  Against other factions we have some advantages, TT and Guild (so 6-7 models is not a surprise) can all be notably elite and expensive while others notably Gremlins are frequently numerous (I expect 9-11 gremlins or pigs even after the bacon bomb nerf).  Generally I go for one big 10SS+ model then 2-3 moderate 7-9SS pieces and the rest in the low 4-6SS with a totem and maybe Raptor in the 3SS range and as I said aim for 8 models, makes for hard choices but that's the game.  
• List special rules - here we are pretty limited, we have some options to do with first activation flip so limited control in an upgrade on whether we win initiative but I can't think of much else.  Notably NB has good initiative control options and Gremlins have some as well. Guild has a plethora of direct activation control special rules/upgrades.  I'll let other more knowledgeable folks discuss other factions here.  Basically if we are not winning activation control in list building model count then special rules will not be coming to our rescue.
• In game summons - as with every faction and crew this depends on you master and other model selection but generally Arcanist's have some great master based summoning and bugger all else.  Ramos is amazing for spam summons, sure they are just one type of model but it is 1AP for potentially multiple summons, they are great models with armor and there are ways to heal them up; Sandeep is a summoner, but its a slow process, solid options but you can't endlessly summon; now Raspy has a summon, remains to be seen how powerful but definitely an option.  Non-master we got one summon I can think of the Mech Rider, its a solid summon but it is on an expensive (12SS) model that can't use soul stones so the summoning only becomes effective after turn 1 and non suit dependent after turn 2, also a (0) action so once/activation.  Generally every faction has at least some summoning; Guild has summons in a Master and in a Henchman they are indirect (off enemy models/deaths), Rezzers are basically a summoning heavy faction, numerous masters, henchman and some other models that is the Rezzer schtick you have to break it fast or endure it, NB has a couple of master summons and some on other models, its an option but mostly master dependent, still those masters which do it can do it well.  Then we have Gremlins notably Somner very powerful and Ulix less so but still solid; TT has a lethal summoner in Asami and Yan Lo can run solid summoning and Outcasts has the rat engine and several models which can provide a form of die and rez summoning (Ashes and Dust notably).  Id say summons wise it falls Rezzers > everyone with OK summons options in NB, TT and Arcanists and I think Guild has no strong summoning play; Gremlins and Outcasts are special cases as the Somner and Hamelin engines are specific to single masters in the wider faction but they are probably the two most overpowering summons/crew size activation control engines in the game, Rezzers do it more but no one does the summon for activation control as well as these two.
• In game killing I'm going to leave open, every faction can do it well and equally can have poor crew selection for it.  This depends on crew and the scheme/strat mix; hell you can wipe a summoning crew and lose on schemes or be tabled mid-game by a horde crew and still have built enough points to win - just like any Malifaux game.
• This is the counter activation control where you use special rules (Kin and such) to activate multiple models in a 'single' activation slot.  Means you get more bang for the isolated activation but you'll run out of activation sooner.  Arcanists have some options here but honestly I've never seen it as a Arcanist thing; Gremlins and Guild both can do this a lot.  Its an aspect of activation control but entirely voluntary and heavily dependent on the individual player and game circumstance.

Basically Arcanist generally fall in the middle road with activation control, we can play for it and have some options but most factions have at least a niche stronger option if they want activation control and the Arcanist player must disrupt it by either killing lots of spam activation and/or summons usually.

Hopefully GG2018 will moderate the  power of activation control, I personally feel the current meta places too much importance on it.   

[dancater]

3 hours ago, retnab said:

Never more than 6, usually 7, most I think I've run is 9 and that was a bit of Fire Gamin spam with Kaeris to see how it'd go  

Note in reference to my post, I think???? retnab means "Never less than 6, usually 7......"  But I'll let them confirm.

But if that is the case then retneb runs one less then my usual goal of 8 which given the excellent quality in several higher cost Arcanist models is simply the devil's deal we need to decide on.

[retnab]

13 minutes ago, dancater said:

Note in reference to my post, I think???? retnab means "Never less than 6, usually 7......"  But I'll let them confirm.

But if that is the case then retneb runs one less then my usual goal of 8 which given the excellent quality in several higher cost Arcanist models is simply the devil's deal we need to decide on.

LOL yes, you're right, fixed it.

I think the toughest problem is we have so many awesome upgrades and 6-10ss models that it gets really easy to load up on the pricier models.  Sometimes the right call is to take more weaker guys, but it can be hard to do.

[dancater]

True, Arcane Reservoir at 2SSalong with many excellent master upgrades filling all three slots means usually my master is a 3-5SS selection and I'm adding another 2-3SS in other upgrades on henchmen and enforcers.

Then add the likely 10+ SS model to present a big threat.

But the real Arcanist crunch is in the 7-9SS range (before upgrades) there is a lot of superb minions, enforcers and henchmen in this range I can think of six I want to take 9/10 and if I do add upgrades then suddenly my 8 or 9 stone mid-range has become a 10+ elite.  

Even in the awkward 6SS range we have some options now with the Steamfitter, Willie, Angelica, Silent One, Soulstone Miner, Large Arachnid and Ice Dancer all great potential takes depending on scheme/strat/crew/opposition and Scorpius has had a potential book 5 resurgence.  The interesting thing is most of these models are more supportive then outright deadly, a lot of the real big damage dealers in Arcanist's are in the 10+ stone range with our mid-range often being less about damage output than utility.  Not sure if this is as heavily the case for other factions.

Honestly its a problem of excellent choices which is not a bad thing at all, in a different thread I was discussing the "poor" Arcanist models, concentrating on our sadly sub-par Ice Golem, and honestly there is not many Arcanist models that don't have a time and place in our lists without forcing the build around them.  Activation control is actually I think one of the weaknesses of the faction, we have lots of reasons to have less then our opposition and limited options to work around this beyond killing them as fast as we can.  

[Jinn]

There is a 17 activation Marcus list I wish I could try out, but the beasts are spread across several factions.

Marcus - 5SS

- Trail of the Gods (1SS)

- Seize the Day (1SS)

The Jackalope (2SS)

4 x Corrupted Hounds (12SS)

4 x Guild Hounds (12SS)

4 x Night Terrors (12SS)

3 x Malifaux Raptors (9SS)

I really want to get some payback against Hamelin, don't judge me.

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Jinn said:

There is a 17 activation Marcus list I wish I could try out, but the beasts are spread across several factions.

Marcus - 5SS

- Trail of the Gods (1SS)

- Seize the Day (1SS)

The Jackalope (2SS)

4 x Corrupted Hounds (12SS)

4 x Guild Hounds (12SS)

4 x Night Terrors (12SS)

3 x Malifaux Raptors (9SS)

I really want to get some payback against Hamelin, don't judge me.

Haha! Let us know how that goes.  

[dancater]

At least in the first turn you'll out activate your opponent, after that...... Well should be interesting at least.

[Mxbedlam]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:40 PM, Jinn said:

There is a 17 activation Marcus list I wish I could try out, but the beasts are spread across several factions.

Marcus - 5SS

- Trail of the Gods (1SS)

- Seize the Day (1SS)

The Jackalope (2SS)

4 x Corrupted Hounds (12SS)

4 x Guild Hounds (12SS)

4 x Night Terrors (12SS)

3 x Malifaux Raptors (9SS)

I really want to get some payback against Hamelin, don't judge me.

I am....just not sure what you are doing with this list? I mean its glorious but I hope you aren't planning to kill more than 2 models all game lol