Oxfordian Mages

[spooky_squirrel]

33 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

So Use his activation to push the mages, and let Captain push him.

Start: Mages are jammed to break crew synergies and deny them their magic shooting (Watcher, Merris, Silurid, Terror Tot, Clockwork Trap w/ pathfinder, etc.)
Blood Ward mage activates and attempts to free other two mages via pushing (or when presented with a softer target, killing the runner/jammer).
Opponent activates, continues jamming mages because it helps them break my crew synergies (softer jammers that can be summoned, or they're doing something nasty like popping up a Killjoy).
Captain activates and burns his AP pushing mages out of engagement and hopefully into a better position or killing a cheap runner/jammer.
Opponent gets another activation. Two of my melee beaters spent their activations trying to free one or two shooters from a model that only was there to jam/distract them.

The problem I have here is that I hired a control group to control the battlefield on my terms, not my opponent's. The goal with a control crew is to minimize your opponent's activations and their ability to score on scheme/strat. If I'm spending activation after activation trying to free up a mage so that it can try to do its job, I'm not running schemes or scoring on the strategy, I'm not slowing or pushing the key pieces of my opponent's plan. I'm reacting to my opponent instead of setting things up in my own favor, which means that they're out-controlling a control crew and my crew has no Plan B because it's skewed for control.

[decker_cky]

40 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Start: Mages are jammed to break crew synergies and deny them their magic shooting (Watcher, Merris, Silurid, Terror Tot, Clockwork Trap w/ pathfinder, etc.)
Blood Ward mage activates and attempts to free other two mages via pushing (or when presented with a softer target, killing the runner/jammer).
Opponent activates, continues jamming mages because it helps them break my crew synergies (softer jammers that can be summoned, or they're doing something nasty like popping up a Killjoy).
Captain activates and burns his AP pushing mages out of engagement and hopefully into a better position or killing a cheap runner/jammer.
Opponent gets another activation. Two of my melee beaters spent their activations trying to free one or two shooters from a model that only was there to jam/distract them.

The problem I have here is that I hired a control group to control the battlefield on my terms, not my opponent's. The goal with a control crew is to minimize your opponent's activations and their ability to score on scheme/strat. If I'm spending activation after activation trying to free up a mage so that it can try to do its job, I'm not running schemes or scoring on the strategy, I'm not slowing or pushing the key pieces of my opponent's plan. I'm reacting to my opponent instead of setting things up in my own favor, which means that they're out-controlling a control crew and my crew has no Plan B because it's skewed for control.

Sounds like a fun game of "mash everything together in the middle". Can we talk about Malifaux now?

[spooky_squirrel]

Since the stuff I mentioned above has been my exact experience fielding three mages, if I'm bringing the mages, I'm inclined to bring 1-2 (yes, still two) for supporting a front line of scheme/strat scorers. This keeps my SS use to 6/12 +1 of 50 providing a tarpit multiplier to the Henchman they're supporting (assuming not Ironsides and not Sandeep Academia; +1 for the Warding Runes upgrade; Blood and Doom Wards in that priority order). In this role, I'm not clumping them up (they're not there by default to resonate with each other for baked-in triggers) unless I need them to condition or push a model to support other things that my crew is trying to do.

This makes their Plan A support and Plan B control/condition/targets of opportunity, which allows me to ignore jammers until it's more convenient to deal with them (if at all). If the opponent doesn't bring jammers, then my mages sit in my midfield supporting the scrum in whatever way is needed.

 

For Ironsides or Sandeep, I can see bringing all three instead of just two, because Sandeep loves academics and Ironsides doesn't need a second henchman around to maximize the Warding Rune usage, she can take the second one herself (which helps her when she's using all of her own AP to pull enemies into her).

Even with them though, I would look at the strat/scheme pool and hire models to complete the strat and as many of the schemes as possible, so that you have some flexibility to respond to what your opponent's crew looks like when you're picking the schemes.

As for talking Malifaux, I have been.

[hydranixx]

I agree with decker. Whenever anyone discussed Oxfordians a year ago, before their shielding upgrade or Sandeep was a thing, they all basically shared the same sentiments: "2 or 3 mages would be nice but they're just too expensive" and "I wish academic actually meant something for them."

Nowadays, both issues are addressed, and I don't think fielding 3 Mages is quite the liability that they used to be. Their weaknesses aren't quite as punishing, purely because they're a bit cheaper, but their strengths remain considerable. Now that they're more likely to be played as a trio, each individual Mage heavily benefits just from the presence of the other two, plus any other academics you include.

If we're particularly concerned about them being tied up in melee, I think it's prudent to note that even though their melee attacks are fairly weak, as we're rewarded for playing more Mages, or more Academics in general (Sandeep), we have more chances to stack up those tomes. The melee attack triggers are actually all quite good; secure that free soulstone back after your attack, raise your damage track or even start threatening that Death Touch trigger. Even a single attack to create a ss before they die to the enemy makes their cost more akin to 4ss.

This is before thinking about their other 0 upgrades which all help out a little bit in combat, either giving access to ranged attacks, a chance to escape or a further tome stacked to make that Death Touch trigger a very, very real proposition. 

Its well known that they're squishy in melee, but my feeling is that now they're costing the same as some of our other staple 5ss models (Railworkers/Performers) it's become so much less of an issue. Additionally, they're not completely glass cannons in melee; they handle horror duels better than the rest of our entire faction (as well as being more sturdy to Lures & debuffs) and Arcane Shield means they don't care as much about anti-armour tech as 90% of the rest of our entire faction does.

The option for 3 mages alone at 15ss has made Hunting Party an extremely potent scheme for Arcanists. Coincidentally we're also really good at defending Hunting Party with a single Malifaux Raptor that just flies about in our deployment. 

[spooky_squirrel]

10 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

I agree with decker. Whenever anyone discussed Oxfordians a year ago, before their shielding upgrade or Sandeep was a thing, they all basically shared the same sentiments: "2 or 3 mages would be nice but they're just too expensive" and "I wish academic actually meant something for them."

Nowadays, both issues are addressed, and I don't think fielding 3 Mages is quite the liability that they used to be. Their weaknesses aren't quite as punishing, purely because they're a bit cheaper, but their strengths remain considerable. Now that they're more likely to be played as a trio, each individual Mage heavily benefits just from the presence of the other two, plus any other academics you include.

If we're particularly concerned about them being tied up in melee, I think it's prudent to note that even though their melee attacks are fairly weak, as we're rewarded for playing more Mages, or more Academics in general (Sandeep), we have more chances to stack up those tomes. The melee attack triggers are actually all quite good; secure that free soulstone back after your attack, raise your damage track or even start threatening that Death Touch trigger. Even a single attack to create a ss before they die to the enemy makes their cost more akin to 4ss.

This is before thinking about their other 0 upgrades which all help out a little bit in combat, either giving access to ranged attacks, a chance to escape or a further tome stacked to make that Death Touch trigger a very, very real proposition. 

Its well known that they're squishy in melee, but my feeling is that now they're costing the same as some of our other staple 5ss models (Railworkers/Performers) it's become so much less of an issue. Additionally, they're not completely glass cannons in melee; they handle horror duels better than the rest of our entire faction (as well as being more sturdy to Lures & debuffs) and Arcane Shield means they don't care as much about anti-armour tech as 90% of the rest of our entire faction does.

The option for 3 mages alone at 15ss has made Hunting Party an extremely potent scheme for Arcanists. Coincidentally we're also really good at defending Hunting Party with a single Malifaux Raptor that just flies about in our deployment. 

I agree that the cost issue is effectively gone. As I implied, there are crews in which I could convince myself to bring all three--but I temper that with asking myself the question "is the third one going to help me with the strat and schemes". If they get left alone to be a magic gunline, I get to use their strengths with reckless abandon (especially in Ironsides with HPM and Student Loans). That's a big if when I'm playing with the more experienced players.

To maximize the resonance benefits, they end up very near each other, which runs into the problems I described above. I point out those problems because the melee capabilities of the mages who don't have Blood Ward are such that a Watcher or Clockwork Trap will keep them from doing their job for a turn or two without outside assistance. If you're not fishing for the higher order triggers, Nemesis Ward wanders off on its own with a built in Tome from the upgrade, and the other two cluster together somewhere to bolster each other and they all get a Tome built into their casting, and now it takes more effort from your opponent to disrupt your using them. This also affects how much Warding Runes might benefit from the Wards themselves (the tables I normally play on at my LGS have a lot of LOS-blocking terrain) if you're looking for that synergy.

The underlying point of everything I've been saying is that members of a crew are hired to do a job. If they're not doing that job, they're not doing what they're hired for (and the soulstones are not being wisely spent). I've found that even with the discount, hiring three of them doesn't always help get the job done, and sometimes it's a 2-3SS model or summoned model that's stopping them. If your strat and scheme pool allows having an elite crew to meet 2-3 schemes and get the strategy, great! That has not often been my experience, hence my comments, to include my initial post of "As with any other model, you want to look at your strats and schemes before committing a significant portion of your [crew] to a family of models, as well as your opponent's faction". This is one of the features of Malifaux I really enjoy: I can build my crew on the fly to respond to the unique puzzle that the strategy, scheme pool, opposing faction, and opposing player creates.

[hydranixx]

Well said. I can agree with that. They're not auto include options, and even after their decreased cost they still need to help you win your VPs or they're wasted ss.

I can't stress enough, how reliable they are if you're up against Ressers or Neverborn. Those factions so frequently rely on Incorporeal (Mages are a good source of Ca damage and conditions), on stacking debuffs/damage like Misery or Poison (Arcane Shield becomes tier 1 when you're only hit for 1 dmg multiple times), and on Horror duels or WP based spells (their WP6, usually with a + flip is godlike).

I'd include 3 of them in a heartbeat against Ressers & NB if the schemes are favourable for them.

[spooky_squirrel]

47 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Well said. I can agree with that. They're not auto include options, and even after their decreased cost they still need to help you win your VPs or they're wasted ss.

I can't stress enough, how reliable they are if you're up against Ressers or Neverborn. Those factions so frequently rely on Incorporeal (Mages are a good source of Ca damage and conditions), on stacking debuffs/damage like Misery or Poison (Arcane Shield becomes tier 1 when you're only hit for 1 dmg multiple times), and on Horror duels or WP based spells (their WP6, usually with a + flip is godlike).

I'd include 3 of them in a heartbeat against Ressers & NB if the schemes are favourable for them.

That's an excellent example of a "right tool for the job", and they get an added bonus of Student Loans when the NB or Ressers try to scare them or lead them astray.

With Kaeris and mystery opponent/strat/schemes, I might bring 1 (with Nemesis Ward) or 2 (Blood/Doom) in order to help hand out burning, or just 1 (blood) in order to provide Ca-based ranged support and help with enemy conditions and pulses (I hate it when my Henchman beater gets paralyzed by horror and there's no Johan or Effigy available) if I'm planning on putting Joss or the Captain up front as a beater with Warding Runes. I'm also going to consider putting in more minions to take advantage of Kaeris' range of abilities, and this is primarily what will constrain my hiring of Mages with Kaeris. I like using things that work off of burning and/or move quickly enough where G&D goes from "interesting" to solid gold.

OP suggested that they're also thinking about Raspy; I've never played but I've played against her. I'm not sure if the Mages would do anything in Raspy's list that Acolytes and Silent Ones can't do better, especially with Raspy herself arcing curses into whatever her controller decides to erase. Since I've got literally zero experience with Raspy, I've got no real opinion beyond that "I'm not sure".

[hydranixx]

51 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

I'm also going to consider putting in more minions to take advantage of Kaeris' range of abilities, and this is primarily what will constrain my hiring of Mages with Kaeris. I like using things that work off of burning and/or move quickly enough where G&D goes from "interesting" to solid gold.

Yeah, with Kaeris you can't go wrong with Raptors. Wk 8 with Flight + a scheme marker for 3ss is a bargain. Malifaux Child is probably the most cost efficient way to achieve it; Child + Raptor(s) is only a 6ss-9ss investment, requires only a low tomes to work with and can easily achieve scheme marker schemes while the rest of your crew caters to the strategy.

As for hiring Oxfordians with Raspy, it seems really awkward to me.

Firstly, and perhaps their biggest crime, they don't contribute to her Ice Mirror network and they can't utilise it either. This is a huge deal when they're the same cost as Silent Ones. Taking 3 for the discount is probably out of the question because that's almost 1/3 of your soulstones spent on models completely independent of the Ice Mirror network.

Secondly, Raspy's not an M&SU master and won't hire other academics (again, Silent Ones > Librarians if you want healing or more Ca), so Student Loans and Resonance lose out on some of their value.

Thirdly, Oxford Mages can't give the Paralyzed condition which most of her crew can take advantage of, and even more importantly they don't have immunity to it, so she can't aim Freeze Over at them quite as cheerfully.

Fourthly and finally, they add even more mobility issues with their terrible Wk stat to a crew that already struggles to support the slowest master in the game. She often requires help to bolster her movement even if positioned well.

[Mxbedlam]

Ironsides, Sandeep and Colette are the only 3 masters I'd consider them with on anything close to a regular basis just because they have the best options to keep them in position and out of trouble.

[Rogue1]

I have had some success hiring Oxfordian mages, usually 2 (blood/doom) of them, with Mei Feng as well.  They can hand out burning to support Mei's attack run and she can prevent them from being picked off too easily using vent steam and destroying the runners that try and tie up the mages.

[decker_cky]

Yeah, no reason Mei, Ramos and Kaeris shouldn't rely heavily on mages. M&SU and burning are synergies that the mages play too, and everyone loves some pushing. They're great at boosting some of the henchmen those masters like keeping around (captain, joss, and firestarter are standouts depending on the crew). 

Marcus too, to be honest, since he only really needs a few beasts and can otherwise bring all the synergy he needs. But Marcus players will tend towards beasts.

[spooky_squirrel]

14 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Yeah, no reason Mei, Ramos and Kaeris shouldn't rely heavily on mages. M&SU and burning are synergies that the mages play too, and everyone loves some pushing. They're great at boosting some of the henchmen those masters like keeping around (captain, joss, and firestarter are standouts depending on the crew). 

Marcus too, to be honest, since he only really needs a few beasts and can otherwise bring all the synergy he needs. But Marcus players will tend towards beasts.

 

Especially Joss, regen + 1 with HtK and a baked in reactivate the first time someone nearly succeeds in killing him can keep him above the HtK threshold and doing painful and unpleasant things to the opposing crew. Of course, if your opponent has the AP to continue trying to kill him, they will, so this isn't something to count on every time.

[decker_cky]

Regenerating firestarter abusing reckless is great too. 

But yeah, Joss + mages in roughly midfield positions gives Mei a nice  railpoint to plan around. 

Same with Captain in most any list - he's a nice second line assault option that can provide a huge amount of mobility to your lists to complete schemes. He makes mages better, and they make him better. He also has some burning synergy, meaning Kaeris and Mei like him. 

[MSKmagic]

Excuse me but I'm new to the game. What's this thing about 3 mages for 15ss? Is it an upgrade? where can i get it?

[so_diogenes]

8 minutes ago, MSKmagic said:

Excuse me but I'm new to the game. What's this thing about 3 mages for 15ss? Is it an upgrade? where can i get it?

when you hire 3 oxfordian mages with the temporary shielding 0 cost upgrade, it reduces their hiring cost to 5. I believe the upgrade comes with them in the troubleshooters box, I'm not sure about if it comes in their box when you buy them separately. It also comes in one of the generalist upgrade decks although I don't remember which. Probably the second.

[MSKmagic]

Thanks. I bought them separately to go with my Sandeep crew. The upgrade wasn't included but now i'll track it down and be able to bring in the 'essence of power' (3ss), giving them +1 casting, effectively for free!

[Gnomezilla]

Actually Temporary Shielding is part of the newest upgrade set from the Ripples of Fate book, sold in the deck 'Generalist Upgrade Deck 2' and not yet available from the print-on-demand service. If you have a friend with access to the book, photocopies/pdf prints are still perfectly tournament legal. It isn't in the Troubleshooters box but all the other Oxfordians upgrades will be.

[madaxeman]

Here's an interesting question about the Mages...

Played all three of them against Pandora last night, and it seems as if their "reduce damage from attacks by one down, can go down to zero" ability meant they are essentially immune to the multiple instances of "take one damage from each of the sources within 3" because you failed a single willpower duel" attacks dished out by Pandora and all of the other crap in that horrible list...  on the bass that they were taking (in this case) three separate, but simultaneous 1-damage attacks. 

OK, they are then usually going to be engaged at more than 1" ...so they become mostly useless anyway at that range, but it was a nice little bonus ..  if it's right of course. 

[Adran]

As long as they haven't activated, Arcane shield will protect them against any number of misery auras, black blood and so forth. Once they have activated, they have no protection at all. PAndora will normally want to wait until they have been before she goes to town on them.