Fated power level

[CougDyver]

Hi all,

 

I'm currently the fatemaster for a campaign, and we're about 9 sessions in.  I don't know if people have had the same feelings, but I feel that the fated are ridiculously powerful.  For example, one of my fated has spent all his points on sorcery and toughness, making him hard to kill, and ridiculously powerful.  He isn't the main talker of the group, so never needs to use his social aspects that much.  Because of it, though, with the combination of talents/skills he has, literally the only way his attacks don't hit is on the black joker, and with altered damage immuto or the ice immuto, he is either killing something each AP, or paralyzing something each AP.  His casting starts at like an 8, and he has a + to the attack flip because of skill focus.

 

Aside from having say a master or henchman come in and obliterate the group, has anyone else had ways to perhaps challenge their groups?

[Omenbringer]

I tend to agree that Fated characters can be made fairly potent without even trying against typical non-fated. At the other end of the spectrum, Masters and kitted out Henchman can tend to feel impossible for even min-maxed fated to encounter. It is because of this that TtB is not a very good system for the typical "Hack and Slash" style game, it is far better utilized as a story telling game where combat is not so common.

 

Try introducing challenges that aren't based on combat to the group.

[Mister Shine]

Hack and slash this is not. The Penny Dreadful does a really good job of showing some other things you can do instead of just running into fight after fight.

[zeeblee]

Suggestion 1)  Separate your spellcaster from the group and force him to talk.

 

Suggestion 2)  Use more enemies.  A lot more enemies.  TtB more than any other game has taught me the trap of throwing a single powerful enemy at a party.  Encounters are much more interesting and dangerous when they have to fight a mob that includes one or two serious threats.  Something like a Mature Nephilim accompanied by 2 Young Nephilim and 4 Terror Tots can really mess people up.  Also, if his primary killing power is Elemental Bolt, then he can't use it while stuck in engagement due to the symbol.  Also find ways to inflict flips on him, especially on damage if you're worried about things not lasting long enough.  My other trick for keeping a fight going:  make the big enemy actually require criticals to die.  Small stuff dies at 0 wounds, but bigguns require effort.

 

Suggestion 3)  Remember that Paralyze goes away at the end of the round, so if the enemy goes before your caster does, then Paralyze won't affect them.

 

Suggestion 4)  Separate him from the group and force him to talk.

[CougDyver]

Thanks all,

 

I've used some of these suggestions... and while I find that i've used TtB as more of a storytelling/skills challenge, my problem is my Fated are just cocky, and their solution to everything is "we'll just kill them and anyone who gets mad at us for killing them".... For example, we ran the first steps of Defense of Innocence.  Rather than looking for dade, they decided to go confront the mayor about his campaign, and if they found him were going to try and kill him to guarantee he didn't win the election.  Needless to say I didn't allow them to find him, but that is an example of the "arrogance" for lack of a better word, that my fated have.  They know that nobody in town is strong enough to kill them, so they figure they might as well run the town...

 

My current solution is going to be to throw a few "NPC Fated" at them, knock them down a peg, and see if they still think they are all that...

[Dirial]

They want to run a town with violence? Let them.

 

See if their skills are good enough to manage the town once it's theirs. (Daenerys, anyone?) 

 

They don't care if people leave, there's no food, and the Guild's taxes eat up their money? They just kill the tax collectors? The Guild will send a subtle investigator. Try to find him through violence!

 

Now the Guild knows who's responsible for their troubles. They are on the wanted list now. They cannot buy stuff, they cannot visit the safe parts of Malifaux, and if they stay too long in one place, the Guild will send a contingent of Guards after them. Or some Witch Hunters. Or Death Marshals. Or all of the above. The Guild definetly has enough people to apprehend them.

 

Don't tell me that wouldn't be an interesting story.

[Victoria]

I don't advise making the game GM vs. Players in an eternal power struggle!

 

I think you need to come up with non-killy plot that isn't solved even if they try to kill things.

[Dirial]

I don't advise making the game GM vs. Players in an eternal power struggle!

 

I think you need to come up with non-killy plot that isn't solved even if they try to kill things.

 

Yeah, this.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I haven't run TTB yet, but this is a common problem in a lot of role playing games. My advice is this, let them, but remind them that actions have consequences.

Remember that an rpg is an interactive storytelling game. In how many stores that get told do you know tht the "heros" go killing anyone who doesn't agree with them, get everything they want, and live brutally ever after?

Even in te real world the ethos of might makes right only goes so far before you either run into something tougher than you, or you come up against an organization whose collective strength is tougher than you.

In the case of Malifaux remember that while the majority of the inhabitants might not be physically stronger than the fated, pure physical power only gets you so far, and tht the world of MALIFAUX is full of individuals strong enough to crush the fated like egg shells, and that the world is going to react to their actions.

As Victoria said you really don't want to approach this with the mindset of gm vs players, but in a this happens, so that happens mentality.

If the fated kill the persons of authority and take over a town on Malifaux, the. It will have repercussions. The Guild runs the human show on Malifaux, as evidenced by the other human factions operating in the shadows. So the guild is going to react to one of their towns being taken over. If the SS are not flowing according to their schedule they are going to find out why.

They might come in with overwhelming force and make an example of those who thought to challenge their authority. If the would be rulers defer to the guild, make sure the guild doesn't lose face, and can keep the SS flowing then the guild might "tacitly" accept the situation, but a brutal authoritarian organization that can hold the breach against the totality of te governments of earth is now going to be watching them very carefully.

And that isn't to say anything about the friends and relations or connections of the people they killed. One of the townsfolk they murdered might have ties to another organization or powerful individual who takes exception to the players actions.

Maybe the local barmaid was being stalked by Seamus, and the heroes taking of her life before seamus could might make him testy enough to react.

Maybe the local mining Forman was the favorite cousin of Joss, or one of the town's orphan's was once saved by lady j, who over the years has taken to looking in on them to see how they are faring. Perhaps the mayor to be they killed was in the secret employ of the TT who have their own plans for the town that are now in disarray because of the fated's actions. Perhaps the NB seeing a collapsing of the traditional power structure in the town decide to strike and reclaim another section of Malifaux before the guild can reassert their presence in the area.

There is a reason why most people who have the power and capability to kill whomever disagrees with them generally don't do so. It might not be they story you envisioned telling, but if you have a group of fated that are going to do so, the story, epic in its proportions, is almost certainly going to be, this is what happens to individuals who draw the attention of the powerful forces of Malifaux. Contemplate their fate and remember why it is said of Malifaux that bad things happen.

[Claymore65]

Ah, the old "Murder Hobo" problem.

 

Like others said, make sure their actions have consequences.

 

However, you don't have to just send giant forces to kill them. You can hurt their emotions too.

 

They just murdered the mayor, right? Well maybe now they have to watch his children cry, swatting at the Fated pathetically because they just killed their daddy. Crying Wives and daughters weep over his corpse.

 

The stores in town lock their doors at their approach, screaming for their kids to stay away from the madmen.

 

Tricks like these are easy, and remind players that this isn't just a power fantasy. This is a world, with "real" people inhabiting it. Their characters are people too. By using emotion, you can convince them to think about their actions more thoroughly.

 

It's critical that you make sure they don't think of their characters as random stat blocks of abilities that let them kill well. They need to think of them as people. If you were in there shoes, would you just shoot everyone who crosses your path? Of course not. Force them to act like people, not stat blocks.

 

And when all else fails, you slaughter them with a horde of super powerful enemies. Send like, 6 Peacekeepers and some super badass Henchmen handlers. They'll die real quick.

[Omenbringer]

Again I would caution against throwing Master or even kitted out Henchman against the group as an equalizer. It really isn't, as that rank value non-fated tend to wade through even kitted out Fated characters and will just make the players feel like they would rather play something else. The static resolution of the non-fated duels is the problem (and yes it is a problem not an issue) there have been some really good suggestions in other threads on how to fix this. Some were better than others but I would recommend taking a look at those and tailoring them to your group.

[Mister Shine]

There's always the meta option too: talk to your players. Ask them if they want to be using this system. If they want to kill every problem you can try to side step and punish it to a point, but if everyone wants to play murder hobos, maybe switch to a game of murder hobos

Otherwise a frank talk could make them realize they are acting murderous and they can start playing like people

Not everything has to be behind the scene trickery, you can talk to players about what they want from the system and what the system has to offer

[dgraz]

There's always the meta option too: talk to your players. Ask them if they want to be using this system. If they want to kill every problem you can try to side step and punish it to a point, but if everyone wants to play murder hobos, maybe switch to a game of murder hobos

Otherwise a frank talk could make them realize they are acting murderous and they can start playing like people

Not everything has to be behind the scene trickery, you can talk to players about what they want from the system and what the system has to offer

This. Best idea I've seen so far. Not every game is for every person.......if you're group would rather play a much more aggressive style of game and are less interested in a story, then maybe a different RPG would be more suitable.

[Mister Shine]

Can we get Mack back to make a DeathBreachwatch RPG? That'd honestly be a lot of fun.

 

If your players do insist on wanting to do this campaign though, remind them they're not necessarily the good guys, but they arent supposed to be the bad guys. You can have a town elder (Fresh Baked Cookie Grandma for max effect) and a bunch of miners (not miner minions, describe the fear in their eyes, mixed with a resolute expression across their collective faces) ask the players to please, just leave.

 

You dont want to egg the players into combat on this one, they'll win. This isnt about beating the mob of stat blocks, its about a town's defiant last plea to the monsters that invaded them to please leave them alone, they got nothing for the monsters and just want them to leave. Hell, you can throw a pile of meager possessions (value, maybe 3 scrip for the lot if you take the family photos out of the old frames and resell them)

 

Tug the damn rotten heart strings of your players. You can even refer to the posse as the heroes of the town. Just, do everything in your power to remind the players they are playing on the wrong damn side of things.

[Ad1]

There's always the meta option too: talk to your players. Ask them if they want to be using this system. If they want to kill every problem you can try to side step and punish it to a point, but if everyone wants to play murder hobos, maybe switch to a game of murder hobos

Otherwise a frank talk could make them realize they are acting murderous and they can start playing like people

Not everything has to be behind the scene trickery, you can talk to players about what they want from the system and what the system has to offer

 

This would be a very prudent step to take. Fatemasters Almanac has a lot of information on this kind of discussions.

 

Another option is that instead of making the NPC's harder you make it easier. I ran a game once where I just did away with mechanics after a while. Instead of running mechanics since the outcome is already pretty much known give them a brief narrative and end it with the fated winning the fight. A mix of all the advice above with reactions of the NPC 'background' being the crowd or local denizens or the guard giving them a 'talking to' about their behaviour. take away the mechanical 'fun' of showing how powerful their PC's are and reduce it to 'You win'. Eventually they'll get bored of that and look for other challenges in your game or a FM that enjoys telling the kinds of stories they want to be involved in.

 

In any game everyone at the table should be having fun including the GM/FM/DM/ST. if you're not having fun tell the players why and try to find a solution that works for everyone. Failing that play two games one hack and slash and another more to your liking or alternate sessions or get someone else to FM the game.

 

Anyway good luck with it.

 

regards,

 

Ad

[zeeblee]

The narrative options are always my favorite options, but now I've also grown curious as to exactly what stats your problem PC(s) have.  Partially just because I'd like to compare it to my own players to see how things stack up.

[AuroraZ]

I had a similar problem with my campaign, where anytime the fated were presented with an option to kill someone, they took it (or created their own opportunity to kill).  Every.  Single.  Time.  Most of the fated in my group had extremely high combat skills, and next to no social skills.  I had one non-combat-oriented fated, and after a few sessions I could tell that his interest in the campaign was waning REALLY fast.  

 

I did two things to fix the problem: 

 

First, I did what many other FM have already suggested: I gave their consequences actions.  Long story short, by killing an innocent NPC the fated ended up being blackmailed by a very high influence (and also very corrupted) woman with close ties to both the guild and the NPCs' "import/export" business partners.  The fated were then stuck - sure, they could try to kill this woman, but then they'd face the wrath of the guild and all of their business partners, which they REALLY didn't want.  They ended up using way more social skills to try to sneakily discredit this woman, and in the last few sessions I ran their body count was less than five.

 

The second thing I did - and in my opinion, this made way more of an impact - was give the fated a reason to be invested in the story.  I wrote in an NPC that was from one of my Fated's past, and when he realized that he had an opportunity to personally invest in and take control of the story, he immediately switched from, "Let's kill everyone in our way" to, "Maybe let's not do that thing."

[CougDyver]

The narrative options are always my favorite options, but now I've also grown curious as to exactly what stats your problem PC(s) have.  Partially just because I'd like to compare it to my own players to see how things stack up.

 

Off the top of my head, I know that my dabbler has Sorcery 5 and intellect +3, so casting at an 8... Has skill focus so he has an inbuilt   .  He has also taken the critical strike on his sorcery, and a general talent to give him a , so he is casting at an 8  with a  , so with the alter damage immuto, his damage track is effectively 4/5/6 with a chance at 5/6/7.  He also has toughness 4 i believe so something like 8 wounds.  His df and wp are pretty low, like 3/4, but because he has such a high attack he keeps his high cards for cheating on defense.  I also have a melee focused fated who has 8 wounds armor +1, ml 7   and a critical strike on an enlarged, folded steel bludgeon, which puts him at a 4/5/8 damage track.

 

Thanks again for the advice everyone... i've done some of these things, and have some more ideas for the next session.

[Sparksman]

What about emphasising the Fate aspect of the game?

 

It's really easy to get caught up in stats, skills, FM strategies and counter-strategies, but what about the characters story? Are they resolving it? Are actively they making decisions around it?

It strikes me that, 9 games in, characters should have resolved about a third to a half of the fate lines, just make bad things automatically happen if they keep defying it.

There's a story (in one of the WCs, I think) about a lady who ends up stuck in a cave for a decade (subjective time) to get a grimoire. She just wanders. Someone else goes in with her, and dies of old age. She comes out with a doppelganger.

These kinds of things just happen in Malifaux, because they're Fated to.

Bad things happen.

[Omenbringer]

Off the top of my head, I know that my dabbler has Sorcery 5 and intellect +3, so casting at an 8... Has skill focus so he has an inbuilt   .  He has also taken the critical strike on his sorcery, and a general talent to give him a , so he is casting at an 8  with a  , so with the alter damage immuto, his damage track is effectively 4/5/6 with a chance at 5/6/7.  He also has toughness 4 i believe so something like 8 wounds.  His df and wp are pretty low, like 3/4, but because he has such a high attack he keeps his high cards for cheating on defense.  I also have a melee focused fated who has 8 wounds armor +1, ml 7   and a critical strike on an enlarged, folded steel bludgeon, which puts him at a 4/5/8 damage track.

 

Thanks again for the advice everyone... i've done some of these things, and have some more ideas for the next session.

Sounds like fairly common starting stats actually. One of my biggest gripes about the game (from the start) was how easy it was to stumble into high combat stats that made a mockery of the static resolution system against anything lower than a Henchman ranked non-fated. Once your players have been exposed to the stat generation and resolution system it is difficult to keep them from "munchkining" characters that wade through combats unless facing Henchman (who give them a challenge) or Masters (that wade thru them for the most part).

 

The blue highlighted part in your post though, is another major annoyance of the system for me. The weapon customization rules add yet another level of Munchkin potential to an already weak combat resolution system. Why would "Folded Steel" make a bludgeon more lethal, when it gains it's damage from mass not cutting power? Carbines, and to a lesser extent Shotguns, are even worse offenders as it is possible to have a starting character (freshly generated) with not only a high combat value but also multiple flips on the attack as well.

 

The game really doesn't suit players that thrive on combat resolution, it really is best as a Story telling game. If your players prefer combat to narrative than it might be best to play a different system, Savage Worlds (The Deadlands Reloaded books specifically) isn't bad for that and can be easily ported to Malifaux with minor modification.

[zeeblee]

With that low WP one of my best suggestions would to send something with a reasonable Terrify score after him, and then maybe to grant the enemy the benefit of not dying at 0 Wounds (instead going for critical effect kill).  Terrify will bleed cards from his hand or make him lose turns attacking.  This and/or forcing them to fight greater numbers and/or forcing onto the players will eventually bleed them (and potentially throw some criticals onto them), but again, this is a blunt force method for "getting control."  The narrative should be the best way to take care of them, but if you really really need to show them that there are things out there that can beat their faces in, there are ways to do it (but it won't feel very good).

 

From the Fatemaster Almanac, some enemies you may want to look into (no idea if they fit into your narrative):

 

Mature Nephilim

Executioner

Peacekeeper

 

and some smaller stuff

Illuminated (spammable Terrify check)

Doppleganger (steal that awesome attack Dabbler attack)

Insidious Madness (to support your WP beasts)

 

To beat this player (or there players) you'll want to find ways to bleed their good cards out and reduce how many flips they can get.  Another strategy:  equip people with rifles and abuse the range bonus due to the Focus condition.  I'm mostly just throwing these ideas to you so that if you do have to drop a hammer, you can, but definitely follow the roleplay advice and out-of-game advice from the rest.

[Mason]

Sounds like fairly common starting stats actually.

 

Getting an Aspect to +3 isn't too difficult for most Fated, true, but the highest skill for most characters is a 3, which puts them at a total of +6. If they flip the Red Joker on their Northern or Southern steps, they can get a single skill at 4, but that's a bit rare (because Red Joker).

 

So for almost every character, it's four sessions of playing to save up enough xp to raise a skill to 4, and another five to raise it to 5. That's about halfway through a campaign with four players, and assumes a fair amount of dedication on the part of the character.  It's certainly doable, but a pretty far cry from "starting stats."

 

 

Carbines, and to a lesser extent Shotguns, are even worse offenders as it is possible to have a starting character (freshly generated) with not only a high combat value but also multiple flips on the attack as well.

 

Note that the Custom Grip has been errata'd so that it no longer stacks with the Saddlegun rule of Carbines. That helps to keep the number of positive fate modifiers a bit more reasonable.

[dgraz]

I only have one session behind me so far and although I was shocked with how easily the Fated walked right through the opposition I had set up for them, I don't really foresee having this type of problem with my group since I think they are more interested in the story. I don't have enough experience yet to refute or agree with anyone above, but this jumped out at me so.....

 

So for almost every character, it's four sessions of playing to save up enough xp to raise a skill to 4, and another five to raise it to 5. 

The book says you spend XP equal to the current skill rating to raise it, so to go from 3 to 4 would only cost 3 XP (3 sessions, not 4). And.....

 

That's IF you only give one XP per session......the book states that you give one automatically per session. Then it states that you give an additional one to three if they achieved a milestone (such as resolving a Destiny Step). So to me that reads that if you resolve a Destiny Step each session (which you should be trying to do) then each character will get a minimum of two. 

[Omenbringer]

Mason I can appreciate that you are an Employee and defending the product but these aren't new complaints. This has been an issue since the backer play testing. There was substantial discussion in the Backer forum about this topic once the resolution system was revealed. The discussion continued on this forum shortly after general release. In short this isn't the first time this issue has been discussed.

 

A Starting Value of 6 (Aspect plus Skill), which is fairly common, is plenty high to disrupt the static resolution system. That puts an average Df Enforcer (Df 5) at a 6-7+ card flip for the Fated to hit. That is before positive flips from Weapon Customizations or Talents or Focus or even cheating. Add in the potential Munchkining of Weapon Damage profiles (especially the melee side) and even multiple flips don't really matter as weak damage can get to 3 with Severe getting to auto-death. With Minion ranked non-fated, combats can be laughably one sided.

 

Take for example a Customized Axe with Folded Steel that is also Enlarged; Damage Profile of 2/ 4/ 8 with on the damage flip. Add Critical Strike for 3/ 5/ 9 minimum (since the suit will already be included due to the Specialist Skill Pre-req on Critical Strike).

 

As for Carbines, instead of Saddlegun why not just fire a Paired (Talent) set with Custom Grips each one handed; :+fate to the Attack. An argument could be made for Shotguns to be able to utilize this as well since there isn't a designation of two handed for them and shotguns can be fired one handed (especially sawed-off double barrels).

 

The magic system is another area where Munchkining is possible, though that has been covered in other threads dedicated to the topic.

 

I like the system as a Story telling game (a la World of Darkness) but as a combat game it is just not good (neither was World of Darkness). It would need a substantial re-write to make it function that way. Through the Breach is not the Malifaux TTG, it is an RPG bassed in the world of Malifaux. If your players aren't interested in that aspect of the game then they should probably find another system to play. As always this is only my opinion but I don't think I am alone in it.

[Mason]

The book says you spend XP equal to the current skill rating to raise it, so to go from 3 to 4 would only cost 3 XP (3 sessions, not 4). And.....

 

You're absolutely correct. I was running off memory and was wrong there.

 

 

 

Mason I can appreciate that you are an Employee and defending the product but these aren't new complaints. This has been an issue since the backer play testing. There was substantial discussion in the Backer forum about this topic once the resolution system was revealed. The discussion continued on this forum shortly after general release. In short this isn't the first time this issue has been discussed.

 

Taking my mistake on xp into account (oops), that still means the character can only reach that level after a third of the way through an average game and not at game start, which was the point of my comment. It doesn't have anything to do with my employment status at Wyrd. I'm just trying to tap down the hyperbole a bit.

 

 

I like the system as a Story telling game (a la World of Darkness) but as a combat game it is just not good (neither was World of Darkness). It would need a substantial re-write to make it function that way.

 

Through the Breach is a stoytelling game. Let's get that out of the way first and foremost. Games will certainly involve combat, but we're not DnD (which I love, but which is all about combat). Call of Cthulhu (another game I love) is a storytelling game as well, on the other side of the line; in CoC, the PCs are probably going to lose most every combat they get into.

 

Now, that aside, there are plenty of ways to make combat work in TTB. The easiest one is to use more decent enemies of various types, rather than one or two amazing enemies. Weight of AP is a very real thing in Malifaux, and it carries over to TTB; your Fated might have awesome combat stats, but they've only got so much AP each turn. Four Fated against four Desperate Mercenaries is probably going to end up in the favor of the Fated. Four Fated against six Desperate Mercenaries and their three Guard Dogs is going to be a bit more rough.

 

Remember to use tactics, too. If your Fated have awesome ranged weapons, have them fight some fast enemies that can close to melee. If they're carrying around swords as large as they are, toss a gunline at them. Mix both, with snipers that don't randomize shooting the Fated while their heavily armored companions tie them up. Use magic; because NPCs don't flip cards, you can ensure that they always hit the TNs for their spells. Teleport the Fated around the battlefield, use illusions to confuse them, have NPCs use magic to heal each other. Make use of Elemental Magia to tag Fated with debilitating conditions, like rooting them to the ground, making them blind, or lighting them on fire. 

 

Throw strings of fights and encounters at them. If they're trying to bust into an Arcanist safehouse, have some guards out front, more inside with one or two spellcasters and plenty of makeshift cover, then some Evade checks as the spellcasters blow up the roof over the PC's heads and try to bring it down on top of them.

 

Another tactic is to use social challenges and ongoing challenges. If the Fated are racing to save an NPC, toss in an Ongoing Challenge that requires athletics or acrobatics to get there in time. Have them faced with NPCs that have information they need whose deaths won't solve the case.

 

 

 

Fated tend to be pretty strong, and they'll often end up winning most fights. That's sort of the point; they're the protagonists of the story. In contrast, the enemies only have to win one fight to see everyone dead and the game over. Take advantage of how strong the Fated are and treat them like action heroes. Would two bandits with guns stop John Wayne?  Nope, those guys are dead and the Duke isn't even going to break a sweat taking them down. But, if the gunshots bring the rest of their gang piling out of the saloon, along with their ten-foot-tall mechanized, machine gun-wielding cyborg bandit, the Duke's going to have a harder time of things...particularly after two of the Bandits take cover behind water barrels and start animating the bodies of the fallen bandits into Undead Bandits. 

 

Yeah, he'll probably win. But the audience expects the Duke to win. The important thing is that it's an awesome fight scene that advances the story.