Need help playing Lilith

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Idk, if I'd play that list. Just cause I dont see a point to baby cade and teddy. With tots, young, neph, and nekima, there is enough speed to get to waifs without fear. But, in all honesty, as  Levi and Lilith player, I wouldn't worry about taking Levi down as much as playing the strats and schemes. A good Levi player is going to keep those waifs hidden and behind large and scary models. Which means you'll pretty much have to go through them to get to the waifs. You're best asset is speed, use that and keep Lilith away from Levi! Ca 7 vs Wp 5 is not going to be your friend! If he brings the Ashes and Dust, you'll need at least three models to kill it for sure.

[Ikvar]

Baby Kade stays behind with Lilith for some Punce action behind the forest, while Teddy is just a good beatstick... but you are more or less saying that I shouldent count on actually beating him in a fight with Lilith?

 

- Would a master like Zoraida then be better, so you can focus more on controle instead of killing stuff?

 

Hmm or maybe I should do a grow list, as he will most likely have a lot of abominations?

 

Something like this maybe:

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Lilith -- 4 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Living Blade [2]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Barbaros [10]

 +Rapid Growth [1]

Black Blood Shaman [7]

Nekima [13]

 +Obsidian Talons [1]

 +The True Mother [2]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

[Joel]

What's your strategy and scheme pool?

[Ikvar]

As always I am well aware that you cant just build a crew before you know the schemes etc. But just as with all the other times I have asked, this is just to get a generel idea of what could be good against him. I have read a bit about him, and both his models and himself seems like a pain to play against, so I would like to have just some basic knowledge of what would work

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

It's fine to try and find a way to beat certain masters before a game, especially if in your local meta you get beaten a lot by 'em. That being said, I'll just mention that taloring a list to beat a specific master is only ok if you lose to that master often and need a boost. I don't think it's in the spirit of the game. Disclaimer aside, this is the thread to talk strategies so let's do that!

 

Lilith's crew is both really good and really bad at dealing with Levi. The good news is that Lilith and crew are very fast and with tangled shadows and illusionary forest, has a good many ways of finish off waifs or thier ancors. I played Levi verses Lilith yesterday and had a really tight spot turn 2 where all my models were surrounded. The badness is that Lilith is wp 5, so Levi will blast her to pieces and even if you take aether connection she'll not be able to stone away the damage anyway. Now the best tactic to take is to keep Lilith always 8" away and when she finishes her turn drop 2 forest markers in front of her. She can still target models and charge them but Levi won't be able to see her. You might be able to get closed enough to charge Levi before he activates. Even if you don't kill him, you'll take away his turn.

 

Against Levi, you probably want as close to 8 or 9 models as you can. He's going to make alot of Aboms if the game goes his way. Plus activations will matter if you want to get to his waifs and kill them before they run off and hide.

 

Growth is also very good against Levi because he has 2 big enforcers that die alot. His mechanic is all recycling. So the Ashes and Dust will die. The Desolation Engine will die. Keep a young nephilim nearby to finish them off or have your big model with growth do the work with a young nearby and get yourself a Mature. That'll even the odds!

 

The issue I have with your last list idea is you don't really have room for Nekima and Barboros. Both are pretty expensive. You also don't know the scheme/strats and you might really need more models. If you want to grow, I'd always take 4 tots and 2 young if I can. That gives you layers or redundancy. You'd be pretty bummed out if your tots or youngs all died without growing cause you didn't have enough, plus you'd have wasted all those upgrades.

 

Zorida I'm not very experancied with. But I know her crew is pretty fast as well if they want to be. Plus the Swamp Mama and Badjuju are super hard to deal with. All those free gups which are just vehicles for a respawning beast! You can show Levi's own game back in his face that way

[Ikvar]

Thanks Hoffman, thats a really big help!

 

In regards to making a crew only to counter another crew- I have no idea what he will bring other then Leveticus of course, so its kinda hard to make a "tailored" list against that. Getting generel knowledge about a master is not something I see as unfair in any way

 

I am furthermore still a bit of a noob, as malifaux is my first miniature game, and the people I play against are all adults that have been playing since they were kids.

 

But it seems like a grow list if I take Lilith is the way to go... but would you by any chance have any knowledge about the Dreamer?

- Lilith, Zoraida and the Dreamer are my three Neverborn masters, and I am trying to find out which masters are good against different crews/masters and strategies etc

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Ha! Dreamer is my first love. Dreamer is good against everything! Except maybe Criid. Downside to Dreamer is all the aura duels that the Levi players generate. Since the Dreamer is only def 4 and doesn't ignore blast/pulse/auras anymore, you have to be careful. But, his summoning potential and range make him a good choice against Levi. When Levi is hidding a waif behind a Ashes and Dust, the Dreamer could through a Stitched or Lelu over (cause he summons within 6") the A&D to get at the waifs. Plus he can bring models in that are not slow. He's summoning is much stronger than Levi's so you shouldn't get out activated. The Dreamer also brings WP based attacks to the game which are the only real way to beat a Rider after turn 3. So if your Levi player brings riders, using the Dreamer and Stitches (they have to focus this attack because Riders have stubborn - neg flip on attacks that resist wp) to bring them down.

 

But, the real thing to consider is what the Stragegy is.

 

Reckoning: Here Lilith Shines! Dreamer is not as good  because he is summoner who brings in wounded models, this can make it too easy for your opponent. You have to go with a LCB build here.

 

Reconnoiter: Dreamer excels here! Summong 3 significant models a turn will maket his very hard for anyone who can't summon like he does. Zorida could be fine here too, she has hardy models that don't die too quickly, plus she has board control. Lilith can easily get a 9 model crew together so its not bad, but she won't perform like the Dreamer will.

 

Turf War: Any one of your NB's is good here. Dreamer can throw significant models into the TW marker without sacrificng the safety of his purchased models. Plus his WP debuffing auras will be more useful in these tight quarters. Zorida has obey and pulses that push, so she can be a really good master here. Lilith is good but she has to rely all on her killing power.

 

Squatters Rights: Lilith shines here! Tots can sprint (potentially) 20" and if you take her totem, they can interact with a 0. Lilith's speed is her best tool here. Levi can't touch her ability to get those markes. Get to them fast, then overhelm your Levi player. Destroy waifs if you can, by the time he gets past your models, he shouldn't have enough turns to catch up. Dreamer is also really good here. His day dreams can get your models up the board real fast, and he himself should throw a few signif models 6" up. Zorida is not bad because her models can deploy from the shadows. You can put a few waldghiests on the objectives, get the Hag into position, and on turn 2 obey three of them to take interacts. This way they keep their camo ability longer.

 

Stake  Claim: This one is hard for everyone. A 2 ap interract is tough. Lilith is best I think because her totem removes one Ap from the cost. So, you can have at least one model walk and drop the counter. Dreamer is still ok, just because he can drop more models, out activated your opponent, then you should be able to get the last Marker dropped that turn. Zorida has potential in her obey. She can force her own models to move then have them spend their own AP to drop the marker. If you get this strategy then Levi is in trouble. His models have no move shenanigans. So they will have to find the AP to move to the other side of the board and still get a counter down. They best he can do is clog you up so you cant make interracts either.

[StaticVortex]

From Dreamer's perspective, may be a good case to take Chompy Dreamer (though, I'm learning more about how that plays now); leave Levi alone and use your WP and terrifying shenanigans.  Take Widow and use webs & daydreams to lower WP, her needle-filled mouth ignores armor, and can force horror duels.  Have Coppelius (with ODW) nearby to throw on some extra damage.  Of course, Madness' depending on schemes.  Lilitu for sure, perhaps Teddy instead of Lelu and take Kade if you can afford it...his high DF and lure are nice.  Take a good cache of stones and use them when mostly for getting Alps out   While first turn is mostly movement, consider sacing a daydream then summoning 3 Alps and lowering your waking to +2, then push and run your Alps aggressively to tie up the crew turn 2 and limit their ranged abilities.  Be aware that some models will not allow you to reduce damage or prevent via stones.  Use your speed to focus on objectives.

 

I am quite interested in how Lilith does, as she will be my next master.

[StaticVortex]

Hoffman, beautiful descriptions!  I had forgotten to mention blasts, they can be trouble (and a reason to hide Dreamer behind Chompy).

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Thanks!!!

 

Also, something to consider. Levi and friends have high WP. Levi 7, Rusty 7, Ashes and Dust 6, Desolation Engine is (i wanna say 6). Aboms 5 and waifs are 5 or 6. So if you wanan WP attack, then you'll definetly want to support yourself with Daydreams, Widow Weaver, and Insidious Maddness like Staticvortex suggested.

[Ikvar]

Again thank you so much for taking your time to write all that Hoffman!

 

Btw if I have 2x Insidious Madness, would the opponent have to waste two card to cheat with a third card?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Yep!!

 

NP! You're talking all about my favorite masters so it's no big.

[StaticVortex]

If Lilith takes Barbaros, and he uses his Macuahuitl attack triggering frenzy with a  it says that he can take the attack again, but unlike onslaught, there looks like he can still declare triggers on the attack.  Meaning, since he is a henchman, he could stone for a  and string as many attacks needed, yes?  

[Ikvar]

I feel kinda stupid, but where do you see the "Frenzy" ability?

 

I can only see his "For the brood" on a 

[Joel]

he doesn't have this ability on his final card.

 

a young nephilim as a rolling trigger on a ram, but no way of use soulstones to ensure it gets them.

[StaticVortex]

I don't have my cards infront of me, I was reading them last night to get a handle on how everything worked and may have got some abilities mixed up in my head.  

[StaticVortex]

Object lesson: Check the cards before typing!  

 

I had confused the Blood Frenzy trigger on Young Nephilim as being under the Barbaros attack.  Well, I feel sheepish.

 

Question about the Cherub's Our Land ability which allow (1) interacts to be taken as (0) interacts.  Would using this ability count as the (0) action for the turn?  I suspect it does, since the card changes the cost of the action.  Meaning, if I gave Lilith the Beckon Malifaux upgrade, she would be able to (0) Illusionary Forest to give her some ranged blocking, using the second (0) as an interact to drop a scheme.

[Adran]

Yes, if you are taking a (0) interact it is your (0) action for the turn.

[StaticVortex]

If Lilith uses her Tangle Shadows to swap one of her brood to place an enemy model within 12" into base contact with her, would Thirsty Mandrake take affect?  

 

My understanding: I think not, since the wording on the card is to 'place' the model rather than 'push' the model.

[Dirial]

Correct, sir.

[Danishdwarf]

Would it be possible for Lilith to select herself as the friendly model with Tangle shadow, as she is not the target of the Action? and then place her in base contact with a target within 12"?

[EntrepeNinja]

Yes. Then you place that target in b2b with Lilith. Perhaps close to your backup, or blocking los.

[Joel]

yes, this is certainly possible.  with correct placement Lilith could move a little over 26" with this (2 tangles, placing on other side of enemy base) and still have an attack with a 3" range.