disappointed rotten harvest participant looking for help

[Nameless]

that's exactly what I've said earlier, Gujozec - some may be discouraged from entering next contests

[Gujozec]

Well I'm sorry, but there is very little that can be done about that.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah... I was trained in photography, so don't have much sympathy for not wanting to be judged on subject. It's a field where, especially in the digital age, it's fairly easy to become technically proficient quickly, which doesn't mean it's less of an art form, but does mean that creative choices are more highlighted: name, color, angle, cropping, framing, image size and proportions, curating, and yes, even the lowly subject matter, are subjective choices that are also very much a skill set, too.

How about looking at it another way: why shouldn't people be rewarded for making a good choice, or punished (maybe that's a little harsh) for a bad one? In a miniatures contest, one person does a great job painting a model; another person does a great job painting an undersized tea cup. Both use the same techniques with the same level of skill. I'd say the winner was pretty clear, unless there were something really clever about why the second person entered the tea cup that was also clear at a glance because they're not being professionally judged, and I'd call that fair.

[Nameless]

@Ikvar - sorry for stealing your thread, but I do enjoy this discussion.

@SpiralngCadavr - ok, let me try to transfer my thoughts on miniatures contests into the photography realm (I'm not an expert in photography, sorry if my comparison is slightly off).

Let's imagine a portrait photo contest.

You find a model with blond hair. You make a nice portrait. You pay attention to the lighting, angle, cropping and everything that is important for a good photography. You take this high quality work (proving your technical skills and artistic approach) to that contest. Then you find out that judges have omitted your work because they don't like blondes. No other specific reason. So ask yourself - should you be punished for picking a blonde or rewarded for choosing a brunette?

And that's what I'm talking about. I haven't said a thing about who's voting (pro painters, amateurs, gamers, our grandmothers, neighbours, bus drivers...); I haven't said a thing about comparing two works of a similar quality, where you indeed need to find something to pick the better one. All I'm saying is that I find it surprising that entries in a miniatures painting contest are dismissed by judges (voters) only because they don't like that particular miniature, not because of technical or artistic merits.

I hope that no one felt offended with my posts. I'm really not trying to attack anyone, just trying to understand where other people are coming from.

[Ikvar]

@Ikvar - sorry for stealing your thread, but I do enjoy this discussion.

Dont be sorry, I think this is both an interesting and needed/relevant discussion, so I wholeheartedly approve ^^

I am however still very new to this hobby, so I would not feel comfortable interfering to much- as long as people can keep the tone sober and respect that people can have different opinions, I truly hope that the moderators will let this thread live aswell

Another thing I would like to through into the discussion aswell though- I overheard some people from the local club, that they had voted on the teddy(second place in my Category). mostly because it apparently had been altered in some cool way. Is this normally something of great importance in every painting competition, so I need to be able to sculpt aswell to score some points?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Ikvar

[rancor709]

the majority of people that vote in these are not professional painters or have the technical eye to say objectively what is better than what. And this isn't a panel with specific criteria that was posted for constants with even a points scaling system. This was a widely available pool on the internet for a miniature company with a particular ascetic. People in the absence of knowledge will vote for what they find most visually appealing as they have no concept that model a is using some very difficult techniques very nicely and model b isn't but has a more pleasing color scheme. This is the equivalent of people with no idea about say college basketball picking teams in a tournament based on which uniforms they like, an informed player will pick based on there knowledge of the team but an uninitiated will pick based on what ever criteria they wish to.

[SpiralngCadavr]

@ Nameless,

Sure, I can actually speak to that sort of example. I know someone who absolutely hates pet photos. They're sure to get on her **** list for evaluating photos, unless they don't. Which is to say, if you manage to make a pet photo that doesn't make her mentally barf at how saccharine or amaturish it feels, then you're likely to earn her respect and see a positive reaction, because, not only have you done something well, you've done something that overcomes her biases. Moral of the story- if you do something well enough, you can get past a bias.

Another example- waaay back when, some time in school, there was some national art competition for something or other, judged by a panel of artists and academics- I and several people I knew applied. Several of our pieces got recognized for whatever it was. I was a bit mystified, because there were pieces (my own and others') which got recognized when there was better work among ours that didn't. I decided to look more closely: every single recognized entry had at least one person in it. It might have been a fluke, but the sample size was something like 100 pieces, of which maybe a 20 got a runner up nod or better, so that's a fair sample size. Moral of the story- yes, sometimes photographing the blond arbitrarily DQ's you, even with professional judges.

My response to the latter in the Rotten Harvest was to do a bunch of different stuff in a bunch of different styles, from a bunch of different miniatures ranges. I didn't know which would work and which wouldn't, so I kinda' did a scattershot approach, hoping something would stick.

[Mako]

Part of painting for competitions is thinking about your target audience and who's voting/judging. It just goes with the territory, competition painting is not the same beast as painting for personal display in the end.

Yes, people can try to put their personal bias to one side and judge technically, but if I don't like a model I'll have a harder time appreciating the skill of the painter. It ends up as "oh, it's well painted, but I still don't like it" simply because of the whole artistic side of it - I don't like blondes, so this portrait does nothing for me even though it's well taken, to use Nameless' example. Which means something of similar skill that does sit well with the person looking at it will seem better.

It takes seriously good judges to get completely free of that (and I doubt anyone is 100% clear of it, that's why they have multiple people). I'm not saying its right, but it does work that way as it isn't an objective set of criteria.

Ikvar - You've got good skills there, so don't feel like the contest was a mark against you as a painter!

I do agree with previous comments that there's a lack of contrast and focal point. It took me ages to realise there's a guy in the stomach as well as in the cage - using some cold colours to contrast the warmth of the flesh would have helped there, as would making the human skin paler than the creature.

The intestines and cloth all merge with the skin colours, which could have been tweaked by using glazes of purple on the intestines, especially in the shadows, maybe some yellow/green on the skin. Or using purple and green on the flesh by the punctures and tears, then pushing the intestines more towards pinkish with a red glaze in the shadows.

I also think making the face contrast a bit stronger would help draw focus to it.

The other thing I'd think about is using gloss as a paint effect just like colour - the intestines and blood could be painted with a thin coat of gloss varnish to make them wet and slippery looking compared to the softer matte finish on the rest of the model.

That looks like quite a lot of things and probably makes me sound fairly critical, but they're only little things - it is very well painted. I'm just not sure the overall effect lives up to the skill and effort you've put into it, given the things I've mentioned. They're tiny things, but they can make stuff really stand out.

[Fetid Strumpet]

@ the OP:

Yes, learning how to convert miniatures and make elaborate display bases will help your chances of winning if that is what you most care about. If you are a serious hobbyist then it will also be rewarding in its own right. People really like rewarding or at least recognizing all the effort and talent that goes into doing conversions. It was another something I've heard from interviews with people who have won Golden Daemon painting competitions. At the highest levels of the art form, you might as well assume that just doing a basic base, and painting a standard model will almost always just get you an "also participated" credit and not much else except in the most rare of circumstances.

[Webmonkey]

Unless you paint as bad as me,.. in which case you're bound to lose anyways*grin*

[Ikvar]

Thank you so much for your critic Mako!

- I learn way more from that kind of post, then people just trying to be nice. I actually think people on this forum is way to nice in generel with these things, which kinda ends up biting people in the ass( I think thats what you say in english? in danish we say "en bjørnetjeneste" . If people are just told how good they are, and no one ever cuts to the point, and tells them what is bad and what they could do better, they will never improve IMO.

@Fetid Strumpet thanks for the advice, I guess thats another thing I need to learn then ^^

[Mako]

Glad I could help!

Its a tricky line, as going full on with the critique can make people feel like giving up, but like you say not giving any suggestions doesn't help people if they want to improve. I'm pretty wary of giving advice, since I'm no expert and often am not sure how much pushing to improve people want.

---------- Post added 12-04-2013 at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was 12-03-2013 at 11:29 PM ----------

Ooh, just remembered - I wrote a piece on the different contrasts you can use in painting a while back, its linked in my WIP thread but here's the link again:

http://db.tt/ZsT8MZVZ

This isn't exactly comprehensive, but it does cover the various contrasts I know of and use when I can think of ways to apply them, so it might help folks a little.