Lure discussion and new FAQ.

[Soundwave]

A while back there was a big ole thread about Lure, which ended up that everyone agreed that we wanted it FAQ'd. Now we did get a bit of FAQ'ing so I figured it's time to see if it helped out in straightening stuff up.

Premises:

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

Clarification, just because they pop up in most of these discussions - it's a Move not a Push, so we can't reference the push rule.

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

So, with that said I'll just toss out a few statements and see if we agree.

Situation A

B lures A. A has a wk of 7 and stands 2" from B. Does A have to move in a straight line and stop in base to base with B, like with a Push, or can B make A use its full wk of 7 as long as it stops in base to base contact? This question only arises if the model is so close that it actually has "spare wk", otherwise it'd always take the shortest route, of course. See image below

As it stands by the current rules, I'm going with Yes, the above is legal. A moves it Wk and it ends it move as close as possible (0" from .

Situation B

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Can the action be taken even though it will not generate any move?

This is of interest because of things like "She doesn't look that dead to me", Not that kind of girl, Smell Fear, Feast of Fear etc, that triggers on failed Wp duels or on successful Lures.

My interpretation is Yes, the action can be taken, it just move the target.

Situation C

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Does this trigger Pounce?

By extension, is 0" still a move of 0"?

My interpretation is No, because as per the FAQ, it simply doesn't move, so we don't really have to factor in if 0"= A Move.

Opinions?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Soundwave

[Pierowmaniac]

Its clear about how far the model is moved.

Its anything but clear about the interaction with Pounce.

You're not immune to being moved by opposing actions, So Lure still works. When you go to move the model (I assume you actually need to verify the models are in B2B), you can't move it further per the FAQ. You're now done with the move. It ends. Pounce should trigger at this point per the preceding. I personally can't make myself read it differently, but I accept that the intent may not be as such, and I've been playing the less favorable interpretation because I'd rather be used to it if it if it gets clarified further.

If the FAQ was intended to address the Pounce interaction instead of just telling you the position of the model doesn't change, it needs to be clearer.

Like I said I would very much like it to be otherwise (and I could very much [and did] argue that is how the ability is worded).

However the FAQ has very clearly answered the question about 'Lure' moving a model already in base to base contact on page 4.

"A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action."

I dont know how this could possibly be any clearer?

How on earth could anyone argue that the model still moves?

[KrispyXIV]

Like I said I would very much like it to be otherwise (and I could very much [and did] argue that is how the ability is worded).

However the FAQ has very clearly answered the question about 'Lure' moving a model already in base to base contact on page 4.

"A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action."

I dont know how this could possibly be any clearer?

How on earth could anyone argue that the model still moves?

No one's arguing it moved. But did it end a Move within 1" of the model with Pounce? That's all Pounce cares about... Changing distance or actually moving the model never come into play.

Lure forces it to move, you determine that the model can't be moved further (that is the full extent of what the FAQ covers), and then the move ends without the model having moved. Satisfying all conditions on Pounce.

[dgraz]

Wow.

[hypoking]

How do you end a move without moving? Its not an issue of not moving further its an issue of not moving at all.

[dgraz]

Well...you see.....Chewbacca was a Wookie....but he lives on Endor.....

[KrispyXIV]

Well...you see.....Chewbacca was a Wookie....but he lives on Endor.....

Really? That's hardly constructive. Its also a bit demeaning and insulting.

I'm not going to waste time trying to explain further, but I really do think this deserves further clarification. Every person in my gaming group I've posed this question to has had the same reading as me; the fact that the distance moved was zero does not invalidate the fact that the model was forced to Move and ended that Move within 1".

The fact that you don't take the same thing away from this to us is exactly why I'm saying this needs further clarification.

[Tuttleboy]

It's an easy clarification that I wouldn't mind seeing in the January updated FAQ.

[Mister Shine]

I'd prefer to not have to sort through 6 additional pages of explaining what the definition of is is. Keep questions in the FAQ that are actually unclear and not just rules lawyering over if a move that never was could be.

[dgraz]

Its also a bit demeaning and insulting.

Really? Wow. Is it just me, or have these forums completely lost all shreds of any kind of sense of humor? There was a time when that line would have spawned a dozen other South Park quotes and memes. Moderation was introduced, and now everyone screams insult all the time......no one knows how to have a little fun anymore.

How boring.

[hypoking]

I'd prefer to not have to sort through 6 additional pages of explaining what the definition of is is. Keep questions in the FAQ that are actually unclear and not just rules lawyering over if a move that never was could be.

To be fair when a faq generates new rules, like the lure ruling does, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for clarity as to what those new shadow rules happen to be.

[The Godlyness]

No one's arguing it moved. But did it end a Move within 1" of the model with Pounce? That's all Pounce cares about... Changing distance or actually moving the model never come into play.

Lure forces it to move, you determine that the model can't be moved further (that is the full extent of what the FAQ covers), and then the move ends without the model having moved. Satisfying all conditions on Pounce.

See i said this (alot actually) but it falls on deaf ears. They see it with rose colored glasses i see black and white RAW. Sure it might not seem like it but and i quote even though its a bad example "a model moves without moving" the faq says it cant be moved further which leads me to believe that it had to have been "moved" previously. and to answer hypoking easily, i declare a walk action i do not move. i moved with out moving. or in this case i cast lure on your model, you model can not move any further than it is right now. moved by not moving. And done waiting for the wo/man to grace us with the Devs of how it should work in minute detail so little minds like mine can read it be that wookie on endor.

[hypoking]

Not the same bud. Were not talking about zero movement we are talking about the rules actively prohibiting you from taking any kind of movement action at all.

Look, I am firmly in the RAW over RAI camp myself. I am high priest, pontif, carnifex, psychopomp, demagogue, apostle, and choir boy to the church of the unconquerable, indivisible, and sanctified writ. I am more than willing to make myself look like a complete ass to argue the letter of the law. Hell, I think I'm doing that right now. It's just that the raw changed with the faq. The raw no longer backs the point blank pounce. Them's the breaks.

[rgarbonzo]

So the interaction I see with this is

Belle casts Lure on Malifaux Citizen who already happens to be all up on her. She tries to lure again but since he's already in base to base contact he cannot move (pg 43 Movement Special Rules, A model cannot move through or over another models base). Action fails so rest to previous i.e. he didn't move. He may have thought about it but he didn't actually move, like at all. Though I suppose you could argue that since the Earth is spinning and rocketing through the universe we are always in motion so anytime anyone doesn't move they still have moved.

[KrispyXIV]

It's just that the raw changed with the faq.

That expressly did not happen. To quote the FAQ...

"These are not changes to the rules, simply clarifications for the convenience of Malifaux players. Each question is about an individual situation, and may not necessarily apply to other situations."

The second line is also relevant here, as it is pretty much saying that just because you cannot use lure to move something from one point in base to base contact to another, we shouldn't assume that anything other than actual movement (that is, a model changing position due to Lure while at point blank) is covered by this FAQ.

Doesn't really matter till January though at this point.

[Justin]

Alright, next FAQ I'll be sure to add:

Q: Does a model that moved 0" count as having moved?

This is definitely going in in January. I put a similar question about damage in this time.