Lure discussion and new FAQ.

[Soundwave]

A while back there was a big ole thread about Lure, which ended up that everyone agreed that we wanted it FAQ'd. Now we did get a bit of FAQ'ing so I figured it's time to see if it helped out in straightening stuff up.

Premises:

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

Clarification, just because they pop up in most of these discussions - it's a Move not a Push, so we can't reference the push rule.

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

So, with that said I'll just toss out a few statements and see if we agree.

Situation A

B lures A. A has a wk of 7 and stands 2" from B. Does A have to move in a straight line and stop in base to base with B, like with a Push, or can B make A use its full wk of 7 as long as it stops in base to base contact? This question only arises if the model is so close that it actually has "spare wk", otherwise it'd always take the shortest route, of course. See image below

As it stands by the current rules, I'm going with Yes, the above is legal. A moves it Wk and it ends it move as close as possible (0" from .

Situation B

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Can the action be taken even though it will not generate any move?

This is of interest because of things like "She doesn't look that dead to me", Not that kind of girl, Smell Fear, Feast of Fear etc, that triggers on failed Wp duels or on successful Lures.

My interpretation is Yes, the action can be taken, it just move the target.

Situation C

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Does this trigger Pounce?

By extension, is 0" still a move of 0"?

My interpretation is No, because as per the FAQ, it simply doesn't move, so we don't really have to factor in if 0"= A Move.

Opinions?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Soundwave

[dgraz]

disagree. as does Ausplosins as he has said so in this forum

Well, that's it then.......if Ausplosions says it, I must agree ...................

not.

[Dracomax]

disagree. as does Ausplosins as he has said so in this forum

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48543-Smoke-and-Shadows/page2

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

lure says move, you have to do what it says as it is an effect.

ok you dont move cause you cant.

you ended a move

pouce kicks off

The bolded part is the part you are wrong in. moving zero does not count as ending a move. To end a move, you must start a move. What you did was check whether a move was possible. then, finding it wasn't, you declared that a move had ended. it doesn't work that way.

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

ETA: the FAQ already says that once in base contact, no move may be caused by lure. Since no movment happened(and not, by strict definition, movement) there was no move for pounce to hit.

[The Godlyness]

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

NO it says may not be MOVED any further.

[dgraz]

Wow. Rules lawyer alert

[The Godlyness]

Which again is irelephant since lure is cause a model to move. which no matter the outcome it has to end. which triggers pounce.

[Dracomax]

and if it may not be moved, then, by definition, it does not move. therefore, as there was no move...

[The Godlyness]

....So what your saying is me casting lure has no effect cause you dislike using its wording?

House rule um Lure does not move you you uhhh teleport to where you go as the Space time continuum displaces the vortex which causes models to move when the effect says move which starts a movement which is not a walk or charge even if it does not move so pounce can freely go off.

[zFiend]

I would also say no, 0" move is not a move. So no it won't trigger pounce.

Then again I thought that discarding 0 cards wasn't a discard and it was ruled that it was, so guess it's waiting time again.

[The Godlyness]

I cast lure which says move. AT this point your model has begun a move. it stands still. it ends a move in the same place it began.

i began its move and ended its move in the Exact same place.

bam problem solved.

Edited November 7, 2013 by The Godlyness

[Dracomax]

Yeah, now you are just being ridiculous. Play it how you want and how your meta treats it. I for one, will refuse to play it that way until and unless the designers specifically state that it is valid, because any other interpretation requires twisting the language into knots just so you can get your interaction.

[The Godlyness]

So i have to be ridiculous to use the ability's as they are written on cards? Well than let me get out my Jester hat and baton and put on a show for ya, Because for some reason i choose to follow the rules as they are written.

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

The FIRST word of that effect. What is it oh yeah move. k got it now lets move on

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

Nowhere does the FAQ say that the model does not MOVE. but can not be MOVED further

now Since its been established that a model that is effected by Lure moves (whether or no it goes 1" or 0")

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

So now it ended it move in my model that has pounce engagement range...well golly gee wilikers Batman i get to make an attack

Edited November 7, 2013 by The Godlyness

[Justin]

So i have to be ridiculous to use the ability's as they are written on cards? Well than let me get out my Jester hat and baton and put on a show for ya, Because for some reason i choose to follow the rules as they are written.

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

The FIRST word of that effect. What is it oh yeah move. k got it now lets move on

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

Nowhere does the FAQ say that the model does not MOVE. but can not be MOVED further

now Since its been established that a model that is effected by Lure moves (whether or no it goes 1" or 0")

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

So now it ended it move in my model that has pounce engagement range...well golly gee wilikers Batman i get to make an attack

Alright, next FAQ I'll be sure to add:

Q: Does a model that moved 0" count as having moved?

[Lolcanoe]

So what you're saying is I can't Pounce a model that is in b2b, since I can't move it any further, therefore not causing a move that would trigger Pounce? The FAQ seems to prohibit the targeted model from walking any further, therefore not moving?

[The Godlyness]

i will let you know next faq. (but of course by then you will know too. lol)

[Ausplosions]

Well, that's it then.......if Ausplosions says it, I must agree ...................

Completely .

Fixed.

---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

disagree. as does Ausplosins as he has said so in this forum

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48543-Smoke-and-Shadows/page2

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

lure says move, you have to do what it says as it is an effect.

ok you dont move cause you cant.

you ended a move

pouce kicks off

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

How far you move is irrelevant since Pounce just asks that you end one for it to work

Firstly, I wouldn't use me as any sort of example to help you argument. I'm not a rules guru, and if you attach my name to anything people will immediately want to kill that thing.

Secondly, don't misrepresent my point. I argue that you can move something 0" and have it be a move.

I DO NOT argue that this should allow you to use Pounce after a Lure, because THE FAQ SAYS THAT YOU CANNOT. THESE IS NO MOVE.

Why are we even arguing that you can?

I do think that there is a distinction for 0" Vs No inches. But it is an irrelevant discussion to be had in relation to Lure because Lure you HAVE to move your Wk.

Other abilities, it says UP TO. 0" would work in this case, as zero is a number, and you have moved it due to a push, etc.

[Mako]

Firstly, I wouldn't use me as any sort of example to help you argument. I'm not a rules guru, and if you attach my name to anything people will immediately want to kill that thing.

That explains the deadly spider, Aranaea Ausplosionsii, responsible for hundreds of deaths every year. It bites you in your dreams...

[Pierowmaniac]

Much that I would personally like it to be otherwise, this has been very very clearly ruled on in the latest FAQ

Its been ruled on, its not that big a deal in the overall scheme of things, I moved on.

[Silas Cordell]

Much that I would personally like it to be otherwise, this has been very very clearly ruled on in the latest FAQ

Its been ruled on, its not that big a deal in the overall scheme of things, I moved on.

This. I think that the FAQ ruling goes against Lures wording, but it is clear how the ability is played.

[Dracomax]

Fixed.

---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

Firstly, I wouldn't use me as any sort of example to help you argument. I'm not a rules guru, and if you attach my name to anything people will immediately want to kill that thing.

Secondly, don't misrepresent my point. I argue that you can move something 0" and have it be a move.

I DO NOT argue that this should allow you to use Pounce after a Lure, because THE FAQ SAYS THAT YOU CANNOT. THESE IS NO MOVE.

Why are we even arguing that you can?

I do think that there is a distinction for 0" Vs No inches. But it is an irrelevant discussion to be had in relation to Lure because Lure you HAVE to move your Wk.

Other abilities, it says UP TO. 0" would work in this case, as zero is a number, and you have moved it due to a push, etc.

You are growing on me. stop it.

[Ausplosions]

You are growing on me. stop it.

I'm like a fungus.

---------- Post added at 10:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------

That explains the deadly spider, Aranaea Ausplosionsii, responsible for hundreds of deaths every year. It bites you in your dreams...

Ausplosions: He'll poison your Dreams.

[dgraz]

I'm like a fungus.

More like cancer.

I should be careful not to poke the dream spider.

[The Godlyness]

Firstly, I wouldn't use me as any sort of example to help you argument. I'm not a rules guru, and if you attach my name to anything people will immediately want to kill that thing.

I know

[Ausplosions]

I know

Ok?

[KrispyXIV]

Much that I would personally like it to be otherwise, this has been very very clearly ruled on in the latest FAQ

Its been ruled on, its not that big a deal in the overall scheme of things, I moved on.

Its clear about how far the model is moved.

Its anything but clear about the interaction with Pounce.

You're not immune to being moved by opposing actions, So Lure still works. When you go to move the model (I assume you actually need to verify the models are in B2B), you can't move it further per the FAQ. You're now done with the move. It ends. Pounce should trigger at this point per the preceding. I personally can't make myself read it differently, but I accept that the intent may not be as such, and I've been playing the less favorable interpretation because I'd rather be used to it if it if it gets clarified further.

If the FAQ was intended to address the Pounce interaction instead of just telling you the position of the model doesn't change, it needs to be clearer.

[BPCSlave]

Agree with this needing clarification - not on the question being whether if a tree falls in a forest, it still counts as moving, but how it specifically interacts with Pounce. Having had this used against me all during the Beta, the way we read it was:

Target model moves its walk. At the end of this, it has to end the move as close to the luring model as possible. If this is within an inch of the casting model, every Belle nearby gets a free strike.

Which lead to pulling models into delta strikes of Rotten Belles, who would get an attack each. Then casting, and moving the model away a bit, and looping it around, then back into base contact for another three strikes. Companion and repeat. You're ticking all of the boxes, you're moving the full walk and you're ending as close to the model as possible.

So what part of that (now disproven) interpretation is wrong? The FAQ says that it can't be moved once in BtB, but doesn't say why exactly, and doesn't say how Pounce works. Not that I want it to work like that, it's just the foetid cherry on top of a very cheap cake that can be spammed with no risk and being almost impossible to resist... but that's an internet shouting match for another day.

Also, hello.