Malicte Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Tara's Stutter Time ability says she "may choose to reflip the results of flips made to end the Encounter". As I read this, if she doesn't like the result of the reflip, as it is still a flip to end the encounter, she can choose to reflip again. Is this the correct reading, or is there some restriction on number of reflips that I haven't managed to dig up yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 rgarbonzo Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm thinking that Tara chooses when the Encounter ends as it seems she can reflip until she gets the results she wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm guessing Tara can only make use of this ability if she won initiative on the final turn and therefore controls the end game flip...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 rgarbonzo Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Nope her Stutter time ability states that she can choose to reflip the results of the end of encounter flip regardless if she flipped or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 FearLord Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Pretty sure the intention must be for a single re-flip - otherwise, surely the ability would just say "Tara chooses whether or not to play another turn" and save everyone some time reflipping until successful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 edonil Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I would say from my perspective, in any tournament/event I ran, I'd be ruling it as one reflip and that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hateful Darkblack Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm with FearLord on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 rgarbonzo Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I agree that it should be a one time thing but it's not written that way. The only reason I argue for it is that it is RAW. Not to say that you can't rule it one way or the other but something that needs to be... explained I guess. See rules lawyers are why we can't have nice things *grin* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 edonil Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Nah, it's a good clarifying question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Sigh, if we can have "RAI vs RAW" debates than it isn't clearly worded, so yeah, chuck that one into the Faq document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Nope her Stutter time ability states that she can choose to reflip the results of the end of encounter flip regardless if she flipped or not. I'm pretty sure it *doesn't* state "regardless if she flipped or not". It says she can re-flip it. It doesn't state she can force her opponent to re-flip it. I agree with the other posters though that I think it should be one re-flip only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Barbagianni Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Nope her Stutter time ability states that she can choose to reflip the results of the end of encounter flip regardless if she flipped or not. Sorry, but I don't get it. How can a player reflip something he never flipped? Whoops, ninjaed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Barnaberible Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Stutter Time: This model may choose to reflip the results of flips made to end the Encounter It dosent state who makes the flip, so I guess the ability can re-flip from the opponents deck (if you are being pedantic you could insist on leaning over and flipping the card for him / her. surely only one re-flip as the ability states it can re-flip the flip made to end the encounter, not re-flip the re-flip of the result to end the encounter, although yes it could be worded better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm pretty sure that whenever you flip (or reflip) anything in Malifaux, you do it from your own deck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kriltic Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 To be honest if someone pulled some of the tricks mentioned in this thread Id just point out that she cant reflip the card simply because she never flipped it to begin with... Yes the ability could be worded better and hopefully they will clarify it soon but that doesnt mean people need to take the p*ss with its wording before the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 hypoking Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Sigh, if we can have "RAI vs RAW" debates than it isn't clearly worded, so yeah, chuck that one into the Faq document. Its possible to argue RAW v Intent even with a clearly worded rule. All it takes to prime that pump is disparity in literal interpretation of the ability and the general assumption about what should be. In this case the rule is pretty clear, if Tara doesn't like it she can keep digging, yet it defies expectations of balance and our assumptions about how such an ability should work. Thing to keep in mind is that without an explicit statement to the contrary our assumptions are just that. To be honest if someone pulled some of the tricks mentioned in this thread Id just point out that she cant reflip the card simply because she never flipped it to begin with... Yes the ability could be worded better and hopefully they will clarify it soon but that doesnt mean people need to take the p*ss with its wording before the clarification. I'm an obsequious guy myself, I know that, and I don't see why playing the game as its written is a bad thing. There ARE rules, and while its possible to play by them I'll play by them. If I have to make them up as I go along than I'm not playing Malifaux anymore so much as I'm playing my own imaginary spinoff. Now I get that intent and Raw sometimes contradict each other, and intent is a wonderful thing, but in the absence of faq or erratum RAW wins that fight 10 times out of 10 for me. Edited August 22, 2013 by hypoking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kriltic Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I play RAW but theres still a limit... If it instead said 'defence flips' of end of Encounter flips. Would you instead make your opponent reflip defence flips until they failed? Or reflip your defence flips until you passed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 hypoking Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 If the rules allowed a model to force a re-flip of defense flips with no inbuilt limitation than yeah, that would be how you would play such a model. All you can use is what's on the card and in the book, anything else is just a will-o-the-wisp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Barnaberible Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 It does need clarifying, when I have used Tara I have played it as re-flip the card once no matter who flipped the card, same as colette's show must go on ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Very well, let's take that logic to the limit: M2E rulebook page 10 - Flips: When a flip is required, the model turns over one or more cards from the top of the Fate Deck to achieve a random number and/or suit "The" fate deck. Not "its controller's" fate deck. I'm going to have a lot of fun flipping cards off the top of my opponent's deck from now on! Edit: My point being, nowhere is it explicitly stated that when you flip cards you do it from your own deck. Since we already have to assume that every other ability on all other models cards require them to flip from their own deck, I don't see why it's proposed to make an exception in this case. Edited August 22, 2013 by Mike3838 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Barnaberible Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Well that's what I believe the RAI is, so if we are then going purely on RAW are we are saying that she can keep flipping her own flips basically ending the encounter when she wants (presuming she made the flip) and also can't target buried models making obliteration symbiote useless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 +1 on the request for clarification. The "target buried model" issue is the worst offender, but Stutter Time could do with clarity on both questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Jonasty Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I don't really have a full opinion on the "which deck does she flip from" line of questioning. To be honest, I don't think it really makes a difference. Whether I'm flipping my own cards or not doesn't have a huge bearing. My one thought though reading some of the other comments is that I wouldn't say she gets to keep flipping till she gets what she wants. She get's a single re-flip of the end of Encounter flip as it is only 1 flip. You either make it or you don't. She doesn't just get to burn through the deck. Now assuming she uses the re-flip and successfully extends the game, I would say she could then reuse the ability at the end of that next turn since it requires a new flip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mike3838 Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 That's my interpretation too, but I cam see the argument for "the reflipped card is also a flip to end the encounter, so subject to the same rule as the original flip". Th first point isn't so much "which deck does she flip from? " as it is "does the ability kick in *at all* if Tara's crew didn't make the original endgame flip?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Barnaberible Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Yes I completely agree with that, for me it's just a question of wether the intention was to have the ability the same as colettes from 1.5 (although described in significantly less words) or only Tara can make the re-flip, which makes controlling activations on the last turn more important. Not really an issue either way as long as its agreed with your opponent I suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Serigala Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 If the original flip is a Black Joker, would this rule follow the usual precedent of not allowing a reflip? Presumably as written, this is not mentioned and therefore the BJ would make no difference, but if this was the intent but was overlooked then this also should be clarified in any FAQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Question
Malicte
Tara's Stutter Time ability says she "may choose to reflip the results of flips made to end the Encounter".
As I read this, if she doesn't like the result of the reflip, as it is still a flip to end the encounter, she can choose to reflip again.
Is this the correct reading, or is there some restriction on number of reflips that I haven't managed to dig up yet?
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