M2E Marcus

[Adran]

looks pretty one trick. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Marcus charging enemy master on turn one already, but this is very much forcing your crew into 3 models. You don't have that many activations in the crew, only starting with 8 models on the table, 6 of which are very vulnerable to anything.

 

May well be my meta, and its natural aggresiveness, but I would expect to lose at least one of my big hitters before its second activation, if not 2, and then the list really looks like it would struggle.

I've also played far too many games where I haven't seen a tome in my hand for 3 turns despite that being 27 cards. I don't like forcing myself on that much reliance.

 

You're settign up Marcus to go maybe 7th, charge the enemy master, and after the charge get the Chaunt off, giving him only 1 attack on  the negative, and then let the oppoennt react. Activation 8 is Myranada bursting up, and turning into Cerberus and Killjoy, and then you have 9 and 10 lettign them try and wail on the master.  

Seems very reliant on them activating the master  early. And not havign any condition removal, or ability to respond.

 

To me its too much reliant on the one trick, and I find I really need a solid plan B which I don't think this list would give me.When it works it should do well, but when it doesn't, and there seem to be many way for it to not work, enough that I would expect less than 50% to go according to plan against an opponent that knows the tactic

(as said even if they have fewer activations, and so no way to answer, just going Defensive +2 pretty much ruins your chances to wipe out the master)

 

Have you tried Skinwalker on Myranda to get her out upfield rather than walking? No idea if it would work in the list, but it seems quicker. And switching a raptor for the JAckolope could also work.  

[dgraz]

You can't Skinwalk Myranda for this trick to work. The idea is to use her Shapechange to sacrifice her which allows Killjoy to come out....Skinwalker is reliant on a model getting killed.....which would be just another strike against this tactic working.

[Adran]

You can't Skinwalk Myranda for this trick to work. The idea is to use her Shapechange to sacrifice her which allows Killjoy to come out....Skinwalker is reliant on a model getting killed.....which would be just another strike against this tactic working.

Actually, although it might make the whole set up harder, if you take the other limited Marcus upgrade, and go for Charging for a 1 action, yoo can set Marcus up to charge a raptor or Jackolope up to  18" away as his second AP, kill it and bring out Myranda. It will move Marcus as far in the turn, and give him as many attacks at his target, just with plus flips rather than +2 damage. And needs 1 tome less in your opening hand. More likely to achive the beasting, but will do less damage overall.

[dgraz]

But that removes Marcus as one of your primary killers. I like Domain when I plan to run Marcus as more of a support guy......with the (1) charge, the +2 Df, and the plus flips he can lock down a good area, and he has a better chance of handing out the beast trigger which goes perfectly with Domesticate.

 

I'm also generally against killing my own models unless I'm using a crew designed for that like Raspy or Sonnia.

[Sandals]

I'm also generally against killing my own models unless I'm using a crew designed for that like Raspy or Sonnia.

 

Or it's a Jackalope ;-)

[dgraz]

-on Guild Hounds;

I'm hoping they're either weaker but faster than the Canines for objectives, or maybe be a little beefier and more expensive....as you mentioned with the Hoarcats, that 5-6ss range is a little small for Marcus........unfortunately, that 5-6ss range in Guild is pretty good! So I don't know what's going to happen....but you're right, I'll get mileage out of them.

Just want to throw back to this post that's almost a year old now to just show how clever the answer to this was.

 

Guild Hounds are 3ss now......so don't technically compete with the 5-6ss minions that were great for Guild. but they become much more effective in pairs.....so they're great at 6ss too.

 

And the other cool thing (since I mentioned Canine Remains in the quote) is that they work really well when partnered with Canine Remains.

[jondoe297]

Question about Marcus and Alpha, came up recently and was interested in other opinions.

Can you Alpha someone who has already activated?

[dgraz]

Question about Marcus and Alpha, came up recently and was interested in other opinions.

Can you Alpha someone who has already activated?

Absolutely.

 

The Alpha Activation does not count as the model's actual Activation. So regardless of whether the model has already Activated or not if you cast Alpha on it, it will get two Activations with it that turn.

[sssk]

Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but there's a a shiny new post up at http://playitlikebeatdown.wordpress.com/ which is vaguely Marcus centric.

 

I'll elaborate on the two sides of the Alpha post-activation question later on when I'm near a rulebook. There's two different interpretations which are both feasible and both make sense.

[dgraz]

@ Razhem; I may (may) get a chance to try your list this weekend. One thing I'm not liking is the 4ss pool. If Marcus doesn't get the initiative turn 2 he could be in for a world of hurt............by the start of turn 2 he could easily be down to 1 stone.........turn 1 and 2 he'll probably burn 1 for cards fishing for Tomes.......then maybe one for initiative on turn 2.

 

I'd like a Canine Remains in there for some Hound staying power. I think I'd have drop something. The Jackalope can't keep up with his Wk 4, so he's possibly out, but I imagine plenty of beasts should die in this list, so you could really get your stones worth out of it by coming back just to keep enemies locked down.....the problem is going to be him getting close enough to get killed in the first place and not just being ignored when he gets there. Dropping him gives a 6ss pool.

 

Or I'd have to drop a Hound or Raptor for a 7ss pool.

 

I'm leaning toward dropping the bunny.

[sssk]

Well hunting down rules for Alpha didn't end well (largely becuase I forgot).

 

Suffice to say, in "activations" (who knows where) it says a model may only activate once unless it has a specific rule saying otherwise (not necessarily correct wording) like reactivate for instance.

 

In Alpha, it says the activation "does not count as the model's activation this turn". So doing alpha before the model has activated is fine (because it doesn't count as its activation).

 

The issue comes if the model has activated (and therefore "cannot activate again this turn"). Alpha doesn't put in any specific condition/rule to logically overrule the "can't activate again" line, however it "doesn't count as the model's activation this turn"...

 

So does the fact that alpha doesn't count as the model's activation overrule the fact that the model cannot activate again?

 

If anyone could edit in the appropriate page numbers that'd be great (or else I'll do it tonight... if I remember this time)

[dgraz]

I seriously think you're reading too much into it.......regardless of what the rules in the book say. If it doesn't count as the model's Activation then it doesn't matter whether the model has Activated or not. This is certainly a case of the model having 'another rule that says otherwise'.....and 'specific rules on cards override general book rules'.

[dgraz]

@Razhem........I tried it.

 

Naturally, to go against my nay-saying it worked perfectly....even though the last game I played I didn't draw one Tome for two Turns so Chiaki could get some Chi.....I drew two Tomes turn one without even burning SS.

 

The strats/schemes also played perfectly into this list......Recon......Breakthrough and Assassinate were available. He took Vendetta and Frame for Murder.

 

My opponent tried a more elite Kaeris list with both Snowstorm and an Ice Golem so only had 6-7 models.....I easily out-activated him.

 

He flanked with Snowstorm and the Golem so I moved all of my dogs that direction and started dropping Scheme Markers (pretending that I cared to potentially get a couple of (1) Charges from the Guild Hounds).......he foolishly double-walked Kaeris up the table and dropped Flame Pillars to block my dogs........Marcus walked once, cast Feral and the Chaunt, then charged with all three ToG abilities and Fast from energies....she still survived his assault.

 

Then Myranda moved and brought in the BoD and Killjoy......and gave me the four cards since Kaeris was so close I didn't need the fast.......I top-decked a free attack for the BoD and hit twice with her........Kaeris still survived..........Killjoy (with fast) hit once for the kill.......then charged Snowstorm....I had one card (from the four from Myranda) and top-decked a suited king to Onslaught on both charge attacks....so Killjoy's four attacks finished Snowstorm.

 

Game called.  The windfall of luck to make this work actually happened..multiple Tomes for Marcus.....cards for extra attacks on the BoD and Killjoy........it could have fallen apart at the start as Kaeris flipped the RJ to defend against the Chaunt......but I also happened to top-deck a 13....which is a tie.

 

Would've ended 10-4.....so even though I housed him it wasn't a complete shut-out thanks to the new Scheme system.

 

We discussed it at length after..........besides the fact that it wasn't any fun for either of us.....we decided that it would never be fun. On the first time that it actually works, not fun for the opponent.......every other time that it doesn't, no fun for me since you'll just be basically just trying to survive the rest of the game when your plan falls apart.

 

It'll never work on him again.....if he had moved elsewhere with Kaeris, or dropped the Flame Pillars elsewhere it would've been a different story. There's also a ton of Masters this just flat-out won't work against. Rasputina stops this cold (hehe) with the Sub-Zero trigger......any  master with Squeel stops it.....Ironsides (with a standard crew set-up) can't even have enemy Conditions put on her....and she would love it if you were stupid enough to gang up on her with all your big beaters. Even masters with Counterspell will make it much more difficult. There's a whole slew of ways to stop it, or delay it.......and honestly all you need to do is delay it and it will fall apart.

 

So, yeah.....I think in a tournament where it's a surprise it could be brutal......but against anyone who's seen it once or even heard about it........coupled with how reliant it is on a little luck......it just isn't going to work. And when it doesn't work you're back-pedaling the rest of the game trying to survive and not get shut-out.

[sssk]

Hey hey team Marcus.

I played in a tournament today and did fairly well (blog post coming soon...ish), and won best sports, for which I was over the moon. Best sports came with a small monetary prize which resulted in the impulse purchase of a dawn serpent.

Now I'm wondering about the wonders of the wonderful dawn serpent. My initial thought (as with most things) is that it's an obvious alpha target (avoid the problem of no extra AP, and make the most of healing twice per turn) and general close support/jack of all trades model. However I've not actually used one since the beta days.

I keep hearing that they're a bit "meh", but I'm not sure if that's just 10t players who can't alpha it. Interested to hear your thoughts on the beasty.

Dave/sssk

[dgraz]

I often have difficulty fitting it into a list at 10ss. As I like several of the other expensive beasts (Cerberus, BoD, Myranda, Cojo) so I usually just can't afford it.

 

However, the few times I have tried it;

 

It is a little meh in the combat area.....it doesn't hit as hard as the Cerberus or BoD (no extra attack triggers) though the auto-poison is a slight bonus. It's ranged attack is decent.

 

Where I've found it best is holding a spot....or engaging some models. It's high Ml stat means it's tough to get away from and it's high Df stat makes it harder to hit. It has a decent number of wounds so it can take a couple of hits. Lots of other beasts have CA actions (plus whatever the enemy has around) so it can reliably heal 3-5 points per Activation. Activate early, heal up....take some damage....Marcus Alphas it....heal again....take some damage....repeat next turn.

 

Myranda hanging around is a good tag-team with her Df buff, and Healing.....and she can use him to make extra attacks with his higher stat if you have the suit.

 

It plus Myranda makes me wish Marcus could take beast totems, because the Zombie Chihuahua has Expunge and you can really rack up the Poison.

 

It's also pretty good at getting around.

But yeah, I usually fall back on the reliability of the Cerberus or BoD for damage dealing......I think the Serpent would be good for Stake a Claim, but you rarely flip that Strat.

[grave13]

Dgraz what are your thoughts on the slateridge mauler? I seen that a plastic reboot is slotted for wave 2. What are your experiences with it? After reading about it in the pull my finger wiki im looking forward to its release because i want to add the Malifaux version of the bear.

[dgraz]

Wish I could help you. I only tried it a couple times way back in early beta and never really got it to do anything back then. There are so many options for Marcus that I just haven't gotten to the bear yet.

[Adran]

Dgraz what are your thoughts on the slateridge mauler? I seen that a plastic reboot is slotted for wave 2. What are your experiences with it? After reading about it in the pull my finger wiki im looking forward to its release because i want to add the Malifaux version of the bear.

 

 

I enjoy the giant bear, for certain missions. He is probably best in something like Turf war, to hold in the middle, or Squatters when he can guard markers.

His Bear Hug can bring some degree of board control.

 

He is pretty durable, but as a general rule I find he rarely gets to make use of Frenzied, as if someone attackes him, they will try and remove him as fast as possible.

As with so many of these models, you want to pick your activation time carefully if they are trying to kill him, as the heal from his attacks can keep him running longer.

 

He probably competes wiht Cojo and Waldigiests (for Marcus) fo rhte tank role, depening on your preference of Impossible to wound + healing vs Defensive vs Armor. there isn't a best answer, but each does well in differernt circumstances.

[decker_cky]

One thing that is kind of nice is that he's a a heavy minion. Doesn't really affect things for Marcus, but for other masters it means he's eligible for some neat abilities (Colette comes to mind). 

[sssk]

Hi folks,

There's a shiny new post up at http://playitlikebeatdown.wordpress.com all about Jimmyfaux X (Totem annihilation), a tournament I was at last weekend.

Enjoy

Dave/sssk

[Math Mathonwy]

Have you experienced Marcus players used Speed of the Serpent to Charge you own models in order to get a speed boost similar to Agility of the Hare? If combined with the Precision of the Eagle, it should be pretty easy to make Marcus miss on his attacks. If the target is something with Armor (rare though that is with Beasts but Waldgeist or something non-Beast like a Metal Gamin could work) Marcus won't be doing much damage even if he hits. And Myranda has healing to help of course.

The idea here is to allow a Support Marcus (God's Domain) to keep up with his other models.

He could also charge, say, Langston, make him a beast with Shillelagh, Feral + Darzee's on an opposing model and Alpha on Langston. Or some other non-beast model of yours, naturally.

[dgraz]

Not me. Anything that involves attacking my own models really isn't my play-style. Myranda's heal really isn't that great and that 1 or 2 points of damage I end up putting on someone will be the tipping point that ends up getting that model killed (just my kind of luck).

Unfortunately, I just don't have enough experience with God's Domain.......Trail really perfectly suits my play-style....giving me a nice mix of support and attack so it's usually my upgrade of choice. (I really should force myself to use it more....but I've been on a 10T kick lately).

[Math Mathonwy]

Aye, Trail looks a lot better than Domain to me and a big part of that is the +3 Wk so I was just thinking that this might be a way to mitigate that problem somewhat. Especially if someone can think of an ideal target to charge for whatever reason (something very durable yet reasonably fast or something with a Defensive Trigger with a usable Push or something).

[Adran]

I've done it a few times. The trick is gettign models into the right place to support him. It is similar in getting models in the right place to rail walk from, ceratainly possible, and silurids, molemen and Raptors can be used to let him get the full 24" if you want. I think I managed to use it to charge Sonnia before she activated 1 game of standard deployment, but thats not hugely likely (really needs quite an open straight of land between the 2 deployemnt areas).  

 

I've not looked at all the tricks that are possible.

[dgraz]

Yeah, the game is even more so about mobility than it was before (and it was massively important before) so that +3 Wk is so useful. Even when using him more in support, being able to move him where you need him to be is key. He can move to lock down an area, position himself to cast spells, run objectives, or position himself for a charge.

 

I think running him as more support could certainly work...the +2 Df is a big help there (and having Myranda around would make him really difficult to hit.) In a Turf War he could move into the center and make a couple enemies beasts to shunt damage to and maybe put out a Domesticate.....with Feral in there he could make 2-3 enemy beasts a turn. I think the charge is the least useful ability there....the Df and the plus flips (giving a better chance to hit for the trigger) are more important.

 

The downside is that all of those things drop off at the end of the turn.....so if he loses initiative, he could be in the middle of some enemy non-beasts with Df 5.....and considering the ones that he is going to want to shut down will be heavy hitters he could be in serious trouble. One good Flurry will ruin his day.