Mr Graves and "Not in Here"

[Therril_83]

I just want to check how you guys interpret the rules "Not in Here" and (1) Show Ya The Door.

My first impression is that Not in Here gives Graves +:rams on strikes, which enables him to automatically trigger (:rams) Broke Something, but then I realised Not in Here does infact not say Strikes but "melee attacks". Now what is confusing me is, does (1) Show Ya the Door count as a melee attack since it uses melee Cb -> Df, and therefore giving him his ram and enables him to trigger (:rams) "And Stay Out!" automatically against brilliant models?

[The Godlyness]

Well since i have no idea what any of those abilitys are i could not tell you which way from what.

It helps to quote and or explain the the abilitys

.

[sssk]

At the risk of getting another thread stuck down the "what's a strike" path, I'll suggest that a melee attack is one with the claw symbol.

disclaimer: I don't have a rulebook with me, so don't shoot me if I'm wrong

[mephiston]

disclaimer: I don't have a rulebook with me, so don't shoot me if I'm wrong

And that would be a strike??

[CRC]

Show Ya the Door is a melee attack.

And I quote: "This model and a target enemy model within 1" perform a melee Cb -> Df Duel."

Edited April 16, 2013 by CRC
because I was completely wrong.

[xKoBiEx]

All "Strikes" are attacks. Not all attacks are "Strikes."

He would get it, yes, given that wording.

[marful]

Page 39 of the small rulebook in the Chapter "Combat" under the heading "General Combat Actions":

(1) Strike: The model (attacker) targets another model or piece of breakable terrain (defender) within range and performs an opposed Duel using the Combat (Cb) value of one of it's Weapons against the defender's Defense (Df) value, shown as Cb->Df. A model must have a melee Weapon to make a melee Strike or a ranged Weapon to make a ranged Strike.

Also Page 39 of the small rulebook, same chapter, under the heading "Melee Basics":

• A model making a Strike with a melee Weapon is making a melee attack and any modifiers that affect models making melee attacks apply.

Not In Here specifically says:

Not In Here: This model's melee attacks receive + :rams when targeting a model with the Brilliance Characteristic.

However, (1) Show Ya The Door says:

(1) Show Ya The Door: This model and a target enemy model within 1" perform a Cb -> Df Duel. If this model wins the Duel its Controller may Push the target model up to 5". Then Push this model toward the target model until it is in base contact with the target.

So, Strikes are melee attacks and thus melee attacks are Strikes. But Cb -> Df Duels are not necessarily melee attacks nor are they necessarily a Strike.

Show Ya The Door is not a melee attack nor a Strike but a Cb->Df Duel. As such it does not gain the benefit of the +:rams from Not In Here as that only grants the +:rams to melee attacks, of which Show Ya The Door is not.

[xKoBiEx]

An action that requires a resist duel is an attack. Show You the Door is a melee resist duel. It is an attack. Otherwise, it would bypass Pitiful, Harmless, and Irresistible.

[Therril_83]

I'm also under the impression that if it says specifically "melee attack" then it's synonymous with and "ranged attack" is . But there is the confusion that keeps popping up about capitalization of the word "attack". Tried finding this in the FAQ and it says nothing about distinguishing them, so perhaps that's not important anymore, but didn't the ruling use to go that capitalized "Attack" was always only strikes, and small "attack" was anything defined on pg18 (of which "actions that inflict Dg or Wd on another model, or require a resist duel" would apply here)

I just wanted to hear other people's thoughts, since I think this intepretation is really what pushes this model between the "hmm, ye, maybe..."-state and the "great!"-state for me. I think moving an enemy model 5" and also landing a strike on them is pretty awesome, but I'm not sure I think it would be worth spending an AP for (generally ofc, there is always situations..) without having a Ram in hand if it's not automated.

Mind you, I'm not arguing either way, I'm simply confused and want help reasoning it out..

[Mr. Goggles]

I agree 100% with marful. After reading Mr. Graves about... 50 times to confirm this, "Show Ya the Door" is not a melee attack. It can result in an attack, but it is not one on it's own.

[HtUnliving]

"Not in here" is a rule stat states Graves getting an auto-Ram on Cb. "And stay out" is trigger that says that after a "Show ya the Door"-action, Graves gets an free Strike vs. the opposing model if he flipped/cheated in a Ram (which he doesn't need 'cause of "Not in here").

That's how my card reads, anyways. And how it is meant to be used imho.

[CRC]

I don't actually have the card, all I have is the book, but in the book, Show Ya the Door has the word "melee" right before the duel.

If the word "melee" is there, then clearly it must be a melee attack. If not, then I guess they changed it, and it isn't.

[tattyted]

Show ya the door uses melee cb. That doesn't make it a strike: simply a duel where melee cb is one of the starting stats. In the same way that you can have a duel using wp that is not a morale duel.

[CRC]

Show ya the door uses melee cb. That doesn't make it a strike: simply a duel where melee cb is one of the starting stats. In the same way that you can have a duel using wp that is not a morale duel.

Everything you say is true.

It's also not important here, because Not In Here doesn't require a Strike.

[Golden]

An action that requires a resist duel is an attack. Show You the Door is a melee resist duel. It is an attack. Otherwise, it would bypass Pitiful, Harmless, and Irresistible.

Second this motion.

[Therril_83]

We're back to the recurring issue about poor wording unfortunately. They could've easily made it very clear if it was +:rams to melee Cb always, or only during strikes.

I think I'm leaning over to using the definition of what is an attack in the rules manual, and then Show Ya the Door most definetly qualifies. I want to think that if they ment only strikes, they would've written Strike and not "melee attack".

[Adran]

Show ya the door is an attack. It uses Melee Cb. That doesn't make it a melee attack though.

I don't think is should work. If they had wanted it to work, why didn't they just add it to his Cb by default rather than only when he makes melee attacks?

[xKoBiEx]

If something is melee and attack, it is a melee attack.

[Adran]

If something is melee and attack, it is a melee attack.

If only.

Its an attack. Its uses melee Cb. That does not mean it is melee.

Not all defense flips use Df.

Not all flips using Df are defense flips

Marful went through the rules on the last page to show when something becomes a melee attack in the rulebook.

Under current wording Doppleganger can't copy "show you the door" and the cherubs bow and expect to use its Cb in the duel. I'll grant you its a very niche case but one that exists

[CRC]

I don't think is should work. If they had wanted it to work, why didn't they just add it to his Cb by default rather than only when he makes melee attacks?

They didn't just add it to his melee Cb because it's conditional on the target having Brilliance.

Marful went through the rules on the last page to show when something becomes a melee attack in the rulebook.

Marful made a critical error in foundational logic. Consider the following:

- All hamsters are mammals.

- Therefore, all mammals are hamsters.

Now compare:

- All [melee] Strikes are melee attacks

- Therefore all melee attacks are Strikes.

Edited April 19, 2013 by CRC

[HtUnliving]

(sry about slight OT last post here, hadn't understood the question correctly)

Rulebook 1,5 p.21 says that something is a melee attack when is causes a Resist duel. And "Show ya the door" specifically says melee duel.

So yeah, "Not in here" applies.

And why can't the Doppelganger copy that ability?

[CRC]

To be constructive:

I think the only point of contention here is:

If I'm making a melee Cb duel during an attack, does that make the attack a "melee attack"?

Now, while in English, that would obviously be true (if a ball is red, then it is a "red ball"), in Malifaux not all flips during attacks are "Attack Flips", so it's entirely reasonable to ask this question.

However, in the absence of some clear rule or ruling that we should ignore basic English grammer, in this specific case I submit that we should not, else every word in the rulebook come up for debate.

[Adran]

I agree that you are rigth that the error of logic is there. I think I went through the lines removed the sentance all melee attacks are strikes, and then followed the rest of it to completion.

Explaining my doppleganger example, if it has replaced its melee weapon with a ranged weapon, then it can't use that Cb when it asks for a melee Cb.

And Grammer doesn't help, as I read it as the word melee applying to the Cb rather than the Duel.