What happens if you run out of cards in your fate deck?

[Ryu]

I mean totally, your fate deck has 0 cards. Not as in "I ran out of cards to draw, oh let me reshuffle" I mean if you have 54 cards in your hand and none in your deck. Does the game explode?

Yes, there is currently a way in the game to do this - but it requires everything to go perfectly.

[Jewomie]

19 vp are awarded to you if you pick up 53 cards.

but if i remember right 54 cards in your hand is an auto-lose

[Omenbringer]

Just out of curiousity how can one hold all 54 cards in their control hand.

The only way that I know of that used to possible was the Infinite Red Joker draw which is no longer possible due to errata.

[Ryu]

I'm going to try and test it with someone tonight first to make sure I've got it down, it's a very niche case but let's just say it involves Hamelin.

Albeit in a competitive setting it would require extreme luck - so much so that it isn't plausible to get full control of the deck. However, if you can count cards even having a hand of 15-20 can be a huge advantage.

[Omenbringer]

Well in that case you may want to take a really good look at The Void since it doesn't allow Hamelin to ignore the Draw Phase only discard effects that target him specifically (not his crew).

Edited March 3, 2013 by Omenbringer

[Ryu]

Okay, I've done some preliminary testing on this and am amused. Here's the gist of the scenario:

Mei Feng v. Hamelin

When something dies Mei Feng has to draw a card

When something dies Hamelin has to bring another rat into play within his aura

Mei Feng's Tiger's Fury trigger needs to hit a new target

So you go up to something near Hamelin, kill it. A rat appears. This new rat =/= what you killed before, so you kill it. The rat that replaces that rat =/= the rat you just killed, so you kill it ad nauseum getting a card for every kill. Since Mei Feng's Tiger's Claw is paired it gives you a much higher chance of continuing the chain before it breaks.

Doing this (and with some luck) you can manipulate your deck - if all goes well you could technically get all 54 cards but that is a statistical outlier and unlikely to happen. What is more likely to happen is you get between 10 and 20 control cards in your hand - you keep the good and ditch the bad. So for that one next turn you've culled a nice portion of the deck.

Like I said, a fringe case because not every opponent is Hamelin but still a very intriguing one.

[Mister Shine]

Eventually they can place the rats out of your melee range

[Ryu]

Nope, assuming you always get your trigger (which you have to for this to even work) Mei Feng gets to push 2" and has a 1" melee range. Rats get placed in base to base to one another.

[Csonti]

1st: How do you ensure that Mei Feng always gets the trigger? That needs a :masks in every Strike which is pretty unlikely provided there are 13+1(RJ) cards in a 54 cards deck. And more than half of those are useless since a lets say 7 of :masks could easily be countered by the defending Rat.

2nd: Hamelin's controller can just place the new rats away from Hamelin and in a few strikes the new Rat will be out of his Voratious Rats ability, so no new Rat appears when it dies.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Csonti

[Ausplosions]

This is unlikely to work.

[Ryu]

Albeit in a competitive setting it would require extreme luck - so much so that it isn't plausible to get full control of the deck. However, if you can count cards even having a hand of 15-20 can be a huge advantage.

Yes, it is unlikely to work to the fullest extent of getting your whole deck.

@Csonti: With low cards what you do is either soulstone them to bring the total up or wait for your opponent to pass with a low total and then cheat it in. You don't care about the damage flip, just that the chain keeps going.

As for it being "unlikely" to happen - in a 54 card deck you have a 25.9% chance of drawing a mask or red joker. Paired means she gets two flips, all you need to do is count masks to know the approximate percentage of masks left in the deck. Getting a 10 hit combo (across all 3 of her non-0 actions) in this situation is not particularly difficult.

I never said this was foolproof or likely. I said it would require extreme luck but could still give you an advantage. And here's the kicker, if Hamelin decides to move a rat out of range - that's one less rat. Either way it's a win for the Mei player.

The original question was, "What happens when you run out of cards in your fate deck?" because, technically it is possible here. Even though it is extremely unlikely - the game should still have rules for the unlikeliest of outcomes if they are possible.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Ryu

[PokiePrawn]

An interesting statistical analysis. It reminds me of old 90's video games where if you and your opponent worked together you could get some glitchy stuff going on. Does anyone remember the Streetfighter freezes? What if your opponent always cheated down so that any mask could hit. Maybe some sort of achievement in a leauge (have at least 20 cards in your hand).

While it is not practical, I mean why on eatch would you waste your high masks kicking unkillable rats when there are other better targets right there, but that is not the point.

The answer to your question is that you can't draw any more cards, so the game freezes and The Void sucks us all in; or more likely, you would keep a control hand and discard the rest creating a new deck. THAT is the most obvious answer to a question in which I am sure has no official rule.

[The Godlyness]

Ryu why are you trying to divide by 0.

if mei must draw then she has to if its a may then leave yourself 4 good cards to keep recyling.

never going to see this happen.

bu

[Ryu]

It's a must, and if it ever did happen in a "for real" game I would definitely leave in 5 high cards, maybe even 6 by cheating them back into the system repeatedly.

The real potential here though in a real game isn't the turn you get the cards, it's the next turn when you've weeded out all/many of the low cards (unless you have the extreme misfortune of drawing all the high cards, but at least then you have more control/knowledge about what's coming). Then you have a great deck until you have to reshuffle.

I'd never say never by the way. I'm certain I'll see it happen in the next two weeks, if only due to an obliging opponent in a casual. In an actual game the highest card count I've achieved at once is 15 in hand, but I'll try and push that limit in the near future.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Ryu

[xKoBiEx]

I've had 20 in hand with Lynch. Interestingly, though, the only two times that I completed Lynch's straight were with only 10-12 cards in hand. The original question is valid as a "what if" but I would definitely use cards before it got to that point.

[Omenbringer]

I am pretty sure that you wont be able to draw the entire deck into your control hand doing this (as it is trigger and opposed duel dependent). However you are correct in that the real potential lies in the next turn when you can weed out some of the low cards (though having a diminished deck to draw from during the turn also means you'll cycle it quicker). Of note though is this:

Getting a 10 hit combo (across all 3 of her non-0 actions) in this situation is not particularly difficult.

Only the Strikes from the Tiger's Claw keeps the chain going so the extra specific AP from Casting Expert doesn't really assist (except for the Control Card it could generate if used for Scalding Breath).

[Ryu]

Sorry, I was factoring in Student of Conflict in my internal tests. Thus the 3 instead of 2, totally spaced writing that in but yes, what you say is completely correct and valid!

[Omenbringer]

Interesting that you are taking the Student of Conflict vice the Emberling. I'd rather have the guaranty of Arcane Reservoir, another Vent Steam and easy access to her full range of Spells every turn for 2 SS less than Fast for only one or two.

Arcane Resevoir effectively being worth 2 Control Cards after turn 1.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm pretty sure that, in the case of having all 54 cards in hand, you'd say "Wow, I did it!", laugh, and be done with your turn.

I guess the really smart thing to do would be to have 49 cards in hand, and a deck consisting of four thirteens and a Red Joker. THAT would be some serious juice.

[Ryu]

Interesting that you are taking the Student of Conflict vice the Emberling. I'd rather have the guaranty of Arcane Reservoir, another Vent Steam and easy access to her full range of Spells every turn for 2 SS less than Fast for only one or two.

Arcane Resevoir effectively being worth 2 Control Cards after turn 1.

I'll be honest in that I usually take the Emberling. However, fast is incredibly potent on Mei Feng - perhaps more so than with most other masters due to her combotasticness.

I think I also play Mei Feng a bit different than most other people too, for better or worse - setting up for one or two super turns.

[Omenbringer]

I think I also play Mei Feng a bit different than most other people too, for better or worse - setting up for one or two super turns.

Thats about how most people seem to use her.