Boshea Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 While Avatars are a mixed bag, overall I think they were well done. I'd rather see them as an option, than auto-include like most of the models from book 2. Book 3 is hit and miss across the board from trying to tone back the power jump from book 1 to book 2. Book 4 looks like they got everything balanced out so to speak. On he topic of Epic masters I'd rather not see that happen. Not so much from a "copy another company" perspective, but more to avoid invalidating existing stuff. I know of far to many warcasters who are just plain garbage compared to their epic version. On the fluff topic of masters getting chosen by Tyrants, that isn't the case for everyone. Hamelin, Seamus, Raspy, and Criid are the only masters connected to tyrants. The other avatars are just Masters dipping into the raw aether to gain power similar to what the tyrants use. There have only been 4/5 (not sure about the Gorgan) named tyrants so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 On the fluff topic of masters getting chosen by Tyrants, that isn't the case for everyone. Hamelin, Seamus, Raspy, and Criid are the only masters connected to tyrants. The other avatars are just Masters dipping into the raw aether to gain power similar to what the tyrants use. There have only been 4/5 (not sure about the Gorgan) named tyrants so far. The Gorgon got confirmed awhile back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 ITT: Some people want one thing. Others want another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 ITT: Some people want one thing. Others want another. Pretty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Well different local metas I guess, but point stands. For a 2ss option I think it does its job well. Whether or not you want to pay the ~$40 for that option is up to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Whether or not you want to pay the ~$40 for that option is up to you Heh, it's not up to anybody right now. They just can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Don't get what you're trying to say here Jonas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Don't get what you're trying to say here Jonas? Avatar Hoffman's model isn't available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I would pay 40 dollars all day for a model that is amazing like nekima or one or two of the avatars i've seen. They just have to be competative, worth 2 soulstones, and not cuddle my master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Well, I was mainly referring to the other 19 options. If you're playing Hoffman I guess you're stuck with regular Hoff in tournies and proxies for friendlies ^^^^Which masters do you play ooshawn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I would pay 40 dollars all day for a model that is amazing like nekima or one or two of the avatars i've seen. They just have to be competative, worth 2 soulstones, and not cuddle my master. Nicodem's is pretty boss. At the other end of the scale, you've got Lady Justice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 We talking Rules or model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 We talking Rules or model? I'm talking models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Oh well, I concede that one to you then. I still really want a Simulacrum 29 despite not playing or having an interest in McMourning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 my favorite is my showgirls crew. I play lilith, pandora, zoraida. kaeris, marcus.Mcmourning, vickies. I own ramos and molly but don't use them. I think that might account for everyone. Now they have cuddled the dreamer alittle, I will probably pick him up. I want collodi too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) There are some Avatars that I really enjoy playing: Avatar Ramos and Avatar Pandora are pretty much always in there when I play Ramos and Pandora. Likewise, Avatar McMourning is a lot of fun and I usually play it when I play McMourning, and I just love Avatar Zoraida. There are some that I'm occasionally in the mood for: I'd like to use Avatar Som'er and Avatar Viktorias sometime but I haven't yet. Avatar Leveticus is fun but tough to field, and less powerful than baseline Leveticus. The others? I just haven't bought. I probably won't buy Avatar Perdita, Hoffman, Colette, Lilith, or Dreamer, even though I play those Crews. Edited February 22, 2013 by Hateful Darkblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Surprised you didn't try out aZoraida, she's basically regular Z on steroids. Same with aRamos, but if you don't play him understandable. Sadly I don't play the others that have avatars, so all my info would be theory rather than practice. Model wise, its all personal opinion on if you like how a model looks or not, so I wont weigh-in. Collodi and Collodi Zoraida are fun as hell though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Personaly i think they should be epic masters. this game has a story. new versions of masters as they grow in power is a good thing. i never understood the please dont make them epic casters group. Its dumb for people in a story to not grow and do new things. Granted they would need new balance options if they changed them now but personaly i feel like it was a failed idea that no one could have made them work right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Personaly i think they should be epic masters. this game has a story. new versions of masters as they grow in power is a good thing. i never understood the please dont make them epic casters group. Its dumb for people in a story to not grow and do new things. Granted they would need new balance options if they changed them now but personaly i feel like it was a failed idea that no one could have made them work right. I've got nothing against "Epic" characters, and I'm an avid Warmachine player, but the way Avatar's are manifested in the game is one of the most interesting aspects of them (and Malifaux as a whole) for me. I enjoy the extra set of objectives that make the game a bit more interesting. I do think there were a few missteps with Avatars however, and while most of them can be addressed on a model by model basis, there are a few issues that affect most of them. 1) They are expensive models with a limited appearance in game. You cannot start with them in play. They can appear as early as turn 2, but in many cases they are designed to appear much later (and in some cases, not at all). I like that they can be used to change your play style half way through a game, but in some circumstances this is neither preferable or worth it. In terms of real money, they represent real centre piece style models that don't cost lots of soulstones for your list and don't see anywhere near as much time on the board as certain other models. There's no real solution to this if manifestation stays (which I think it should) - gamers are hard wired to want to get maximum use from their shineys... 2) I'm glad that they weren't created to be overpowered options, but you already have to jump through hoops to meet the requirements and then pay AP to manifest, so while I think they should be more of a "sideways shift" as they are, they should probably be at least a slight upgrade over the starting master. 3) Some of the manifest requirements are far far harder than others. I think there could have been other things to do to make some of these a bit more interesting, but I'd like the balance of some of the manifest requirements looked at a bit closer... 4) Some specific Avatars aren't worth spending the points for (at least in high level play) as the circumstances where they would be useful (and make no mistake, those circumstances exist) are so specific that you'd probably get better use from them elsewhere. A big part of this is direct synergy between masters and crew as some have said, and its no accident that most of the best Avatars are from masters with little direct synergy... I think in these circumstances, the loss of this synergy should be accounted for with an increase in personal power. I think Avatars are a great idea, but like any game mechanic that complicated, getting the balance right first time is hard, and they could certainly do with another pass over to smooth out a few of the kinks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I disagree The event made some masters better than others. Not all experiences make someone "epic". The Avatars are a progression of characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 My Experience with Avatars so far: Sonnia: - easy to manifest - massive dmg output without a massive problem for vanilla Sonnia against melee heavy Crews or Crews able to hide from her. - opposite to the common notion, I don't see her as an auto include, but a valuable option. Pandora - medium manifest - much more staying power on the cost of absolutely 0 mobility. Great dmg output and utilities. Free aCandy with a double healing flip for the duo. - Significant Sorrows, great when you work towards manifest and have them in position once the avatar hits the table. - Strategy dependant (Great for strategies where you need many significant models or have to hold a position) Marcus - easy manifest - devastating for living Crews. Roar powered by a high card or even SS will win you more then one game. Great with a Crew of beatsticks to power with his "obey" (I use Rogue and Shikome with him) - good for kill strategies (slaughter, vs escape and survive...) or area control against living models Leveticus - medium manifest - Awesome Crew (Four Horsemen of the apocalypse), much more durable against fast crews. Good against Crews able to hide from him (Mei Fang, Marcus, Lilith, etc). - More Fun then a needed addition Ramos - very easy manifest - fast and deadly when paired with enough constructs - best for aggressive strategies (so actually most of them) Seamus - medium-hard manifest - Very fragile but matchwinner if he makes it to late game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forar Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Personally I have only ever used Sonnia's avatar, and found it to be an excellent use of 2 stones in my list. Granted, the person I was playing against, while a highly skilled gamer in his own right, was using a new Resser crew, and while it seemed close by mid game, at the end it was pretty much an utter decimation, and may well have been so without her assistance. Impossible to know, just noting my minimal annecdotal/personal experience. On paper, however, I am less interested in the other 3 Guild avatars, mostly for the reasons presented here in the thread. Perdita, LJ and Hoffman don't seem (on paper, to me) to get enough over what they lose with their transitions for me to spend 2 stones on a contingency when I can instead just use those to enhance my crew or run a larger cache. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for avatars to be strict upgrades to a master in every sense of the word, but given that there is the rule with Avatars that you must declare that an avatar is attached, but not which one, I think it'd be interesting to see at least one more round of them, giving each master 2 possible avatar figures, each focusing on enhancing different aspects of that master/crew's playstyle. With different advantages/focuses and detriments alike, perhaps people would be more inclined to utilize them? Of course, there's nothing wrong with not using them either, and I'm not trying to advocate advancing the mechanic to the point that they're an auto-include, especially since having a nigh-mandatory figure for each crew added that costs more than many crew box sets would raise a notable barrier to entry. One of Malifaux's advantages has been noted across the net that it's a fairly inexpensive miniatures game to get into, at least casually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) I may be biased as a resser, but I love the avatars and what they all bring to the table for me. Kirai gives me a much needed oh **** button that has saved me a couple of games already, aSeamus lets Seamus follow up his ranged game instead of getting engaged and sucking it while at the same time bringing the whole concept of TERROR to the table. McMourning, though a late manifest is a game devastator, I went from being afraid of getting close to Pandora to engaging with no fear thanks to how devastating crawling doom is and placing a new activation that hits as hard as Simulacrum out of nowhere is plain savage. Nicodem I haven't tried avataring yet, but from what I hear, people say good things about it. So yeah, I welcome the avatars with open arms. That some are wonkier than others? No doubt, Rasputing gets an Oh **** button too which is fantastic with her, but it's packing casting expert when it barely has anything worth casting, Hoffman is a bit skitso and aLeviticus seems very hard to get good use out of without crippling base Levi. That they need refinement I agree, but I like the concept and having been on the receiving end of the best batch, I love them. I wouldn't mind a way to be implemente that allowed a model to start manifested, even if it was for a certain number of turns before "reverting" to non avatar form or some such. That would open use for a lot of avatars like Lady J, who I really like as an avatar, but becomes even more compelling if the first 3 turns she can be a buffer and the next 3 the beater we have grown to hate and so on. Or if it's full Game, Leveticus could do a full rider list like feeling that he is gimping himself. Edited December 28, 2012 by Razhem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Judging by how few seem to get any use, I think most of them do. I agree with you, OP. I think Avatars are were a bad idea, from conception to execution. Our experiences differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I may be biased as a resser, but I love the avatars and what they all bring to the table for me. Completely Agree, but its cause ressers got from avatars a good support to there base form, this isn't true of all avatars. I'd say that Resser avatars are indeed the best of the bunch. Avatar Ramos got melee expert that should of went to raspy and raspy got casting that should of went to ramos. I agree with you again that I would love to see a mechanic that allowed avatar to start the game or be available very shortly after start. Either an additional purchase price for the requirements or an instablity mechanic. Where you flip at the start of there activation to see if they become unstable and revert back to normal form. I think justice is a prime example of being designed for turn 1 but realstically not manifesting till turn 3. I'd say the avatars are far from a bad Idea, I love the concept and appreciate the mechanic, I think there should simply be ways without us having to do it, to make avatars more of a true option across all factions and not just ressers. Thou I love them so. The real question is, do you want to see 10 thunders masters get avatar forms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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