ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 First off let me point out this is personal opinion and food for thought. I think they really shot themselves in the foot with the avatars.... I mean, 90% are just like nekima, really awesome looking, but not very competative or even as exciting to as they should be to use the ultimate incarnation of that master's power. sold my rasputina crew the day I bought that book, since her avatar seemed terrible. Out of the 5-10 malifaux crews I have, don't own a single avatar. They are all terrible to me. Maybe i'm just one of those players whose brain immediately wants to play things that give me useful tool when I play against other people. I can totally understand throwing down with a noob or a friend and bringing out this awesome model and not completely crushing your friend. It's taken quite a long time, but I finally can enjoy a game like that. BUT..... BUT..... on the other hand, when I sit across from a guy like myself that wants to think about the game and is excited to win, takes the game seriously etc. I wanna use that same awesome model to the utmost brutal efficacy possible. And avatars for the most part just don't cut it. Thoughts? I say while your changing nekima and hamelin. Just go ahead and redo every damn avatar, except for maybe like zoraida. I've heard she is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfndrate Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 The thing that should be noted is that the Avatars are not meant to "amg auto include" They're to give different play styles and change a majority of your crew to deal with the ever evolving situations that can arise in a game. The biggest one to look at is Tina's Avatar of Famine. aTina is supposed to be the sort of last ditch pitch. You're stuck in a corner, you can't escape. and maybe have 1 more turn of spell casting before you're cut down. Manifest the avatar, and now you have something that sacrifices the spell casting power of Tina for melee survivability... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Interesting don't agree with you but its Interesting. Avatar Ramos-The default competitve version of Ramos Avatar Sonnia-The Default Competitive Version of Sonnia Avatar Seamus-The Default Competitive version of Seamus Avatar Zorida- Interesting but never found her overall great one way or another. Avatar Raspy- I agree its specifically designed to do things once Raspy has been engaged in melee. Which is simply a tool, not a great one but more than she had. The avatars in general are very hit and miss, but I'd say that several of them are absolutely required for there masters to play at a competitive level, and several I'm looking at you A Hoffman are a marked disappointment. And some offer very nice tools that are competitive for certain strategy. If you play primary neverborn, you may have no need of your avatar. If you play resser like I do, I love my avatars as they fill gaps and just help them play more solidly. Arcanists is a bit of a mixed bag, and outcasts are very much in the neat category. Guild also hit and miss. But the great thing about the avatars are you don't have to them, you can play just fine without one, even if your opponent has one. They are a sidegrade for the most part and were designed as such, could some use a second look sure they could but so could a lot of things its all a matter of priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) The thing with tina's avatar is that it's not really that easy to control when you change and all that. And I thought of that viewpoint too, except My brain immediately went to the other powerhouse autoincludes that seem to be in every crew. Every crew has several models that if you don't use competatively, it's autoloss. Off the top of my head i'm thinking like, rotten belles, coryphee, stitched togethers. they are for sure out there. Also looking under my desk for more essential models, I realize I have a marcus avatar that I forgot I even owned. would probably sell him for 5$ or a few beers. You might be right about sonnia, ramos, and seamus. I've seen people use Aseamus, ramos, and sonnia. Which I think personally, is just great for the game and wyrd. On the other hand when I see those crews, and the avatar, typically if i'm not playing a buddy of mine orsomeone that is just trying to push some models around.. i'm not worried about losing anyways. Edited December 27, 2012 by ooshawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 As a Lilith player her Avater is very interesting lots of fun as well with the right list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfndrate Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Actually from my experience, the avatars have 1 "moderate to easy" requirement to complete and 1 "moderate to difficult" requirement. I regularly use aPandora because for awhile it was the only way for me to get to 35ss with her crew, and I could easily hit the first requirement of 10 wounds with Self Loathing/Emotional Trauma. Rasputina has a similar requirement in the Biting Chill requirement, while the second requirement is a little hard to do. Remember you only need 1 requirement to manifest, it simply makes it easier to manifest with 2 requirements met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 would probably sell him for 5$ or a few beers. How dare you disrespect beer like that!! My major beef with the Avatars is the overall price you pay (in real monies, not soul stones lol) for a model you may, and in most circumstances, use for half the game. I think they can be a of fun otherwise and I do wish my local meta used them more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 We've run a few events where you either start the game manifested or can manifest at the end of turn 1 for those wiith special movement requirements i.e. the viks. IT was a lot of fun and very successful plus it helped get some avatars on the table for more than 3turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Well every avatar might be fun and interesting to play, much like I said earlier it's all personal taste. On the other hand, nobody in my mind atleast, can argue with the brutal efficacy that models like coryphee and stitched together bring to the game. When I wanna win, my personal tastes are reliability and effectiveness at a given task. For me alot of avatars just don't have that, except I guess like ramos and sonnia. if that's what your into >> (not me personally) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 As has been said, Avatars weren't meant to be Auto includes. Wyrd stated specifically that they wanted to avoid a situation where players had a race to manifest before the other as they didn't intend Avatars to be requirements to play. When I heard that I was happy, but I thought it would be a tough goal to pull off, and honestly they did slightly better than I expected. The issue is that mostly a player is going to put in their crew what will return the most outcome for the investment put in. Additionally in Master selection if your master directly effects how the entire crew plays, like Kirai or Colette, you are less likely to want to give up those basic master effects for a different set of effects. So what you end up with is the situation we have now where the only avatars that really show up all that often are those that fall into distinct categories: Avatars that are flat out better than their basic master: examples - Seamus & Ramos. Avatars that do pretty much the best things the basic master does but at +1: examples - Nicodem & Sonia. and then the rest. Honestly barring a rebalancing, and I'm not certain that's the way forward, what might be the answer is to perhaps just get rid of the SS cost of attaching the Avatar. Not everyone will bring one, and not everyone will bother to attempt manifesting, but it gets rid of the situation where they never show up because it isn't worth the 2 SS investment. However that is a purely mental institution as I've never tried testing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 I completely agree with you fetid strumpet. I like your thinking, but I would even go a step further and try to move atleast every master in the same category as nicodem and sonnia. I would love to use simulacrum 29 and several other avatars more often. It just seems like most of the masters I play fall into that category of "and then the rest". why would I trade lilith for her avatar at all if i'm not setting my crew up for that sort of thing. Marcus's avatar straight up needs a rewrite or give him that wild heart ability his normal form has. think you hit the nail on the head for the most part, just figuring out a viable solution is the hard part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) The thing is no matter what happens Avatars give you a choice to change your playstyle halfway through a game, which is a choice that someone that doesn't have an Avatar does not have. Without some cost for attaching Avatars, Avatars become an auto include. As having an option is better than not having an option. Also I'm of the opinion that Avatar Seamus is not outright better than normal Seamus, if he was he would be in every game, which I know is not the case locally. Edited December 27, 2012 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 still some consideration or attention has to give given to anything that is said by a large amount of people. Nearly every malifaux player I've talked to locally has atleast partially agreed with my sentiment. Also Ive seen the argument online plenty of times. If avatars were free though, a large amount of people still would never include lilith, marcus, pandora, rasputina, or many other avatars from what i've heard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) Also I'm of the opinion that Avatar Seamus is not outright better than normal Seamus, if he was he would be in every game, which I know is not the case locally. The only argument I have ever agreed with for not auto-including aSeamus is tight time limits in a tournament making him never hit the board or have little impact in his limited time. Aside from that, having the option to turn into a melee terror and discourage models from getting in close, where regular Seamus is not great, is well worth the investment. In general though, my feeling on it is the same as Ratty's that, time constraints aside, I would always rather have the option to change things up and I feel like those two soulstones would be tough to spend in another area to get that same level of flexibility. EDIT: But I do think there are a few avatars that could use some help... Edited December 27, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 What I think me and fetid are saying, is that would be great in theory. But playing with avatar marcus, he is just straight up weaker than non avatar marcus. Same with many of the other avatars. It's a great investment for 2 soulstones. Were just saying alot of the avatars even when they change to meet a different situation are so weak, boring, or ineffective. It's not really even worth doing if it didn't cost two soulstones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 EDIT: But I do think there are a few avatars that could use some help... Judging by how few seem to get any use, I think most of them do. I agree with you, OP. I think Avatars are were a bad idea, from conception to execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'll disagree with you there Jonas because I do enjoy the concept of Masters being chosen by Tyrants willingly or unwillingly and trying to balance that power. Execution Im split on. I feel some avatars are quite useful and may fill holes masters otherwise had: Ramos and Seamus come to mind. Others make the master play completely different for better or worse, and this is where I feel some might have had better rule sets. But I dont feel like aHoffman is as useless as I know you think he is. Being able to suddenly drop him out on turn 6 to sweep the room or do some timely paralysis is quite handy and Im not sure about your local, butt in mine if you know you're facing hoff you dont even bother bringing blasts, until you realize you might want a couple just in case of avatar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I agree with you, OP. I think Avatars are were a bad idea, from conception to execution. I disagree, I do think some Avatars are didn't quite live up to the hype but I think overall they are an interesting addition to the game that does not break any balance. More so I am glad Wyrd developed a way to include them in the game without just making them Epic Masters, which would have been boring IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I disagree, I do think some Avatars are didn't quite live up to the hype but I think overall they are an interesting addition to the game that does not break any balance. More so I am glad Wyrd developed a way to include them in the game without just making them Epic Masters, which would have been boring IMHO See, I've heard "we can't have Epics" since the complaints about Manifestation started rolling in, and I just think it's the most hollow of reasons. Sure, trying to come up with new things is nice, but sometimes feeling the need to avoid imitation is haltering. It's like if a car maker decided that he could have wheels because that's what the other guys did. ---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ---------- I'll disagree with you there Jonas because I do enjoy the concept of Masters being chosen by Tyrants willingly or unwillingly and trying to balance that power. I think Tyrant Entities are one of the least interesting aspects of Malifaux, now that they've become the focus of the main story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 What if we got cool hover cars? They were the main focus of book 3, and I'll agree with you on disliking them as a main story emphasis, but I think in the book about their aspects, the avatars, you kinda need to talk them up a little. Book 4 mentions "hey maybe huggy D remembers the tyrants" and that was the extent of it, so I wouldnt call them the main emphasis overall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 What if we got cool hover cars? We didn't end up with hover cars, we ended up with square wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 aSeamus' fists mayb be big and blocky, but I wouldnt really call him a square wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 or do some timely paralysis Why wait til turn six? Start with a Warden instead. ---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ---------- aSeamus' fists mayb be big and blocky, but I wouldnt really call him a square wheel No, he belongs to a small club of avatars called "Straight up better." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Because minions cant use soulstones and are often taken out early in the game. Its a 2ss option. So really a better comparison is a Desperate Merc for the first half, rather than a 5SS model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Because minions cant use soulstones and are often taken out early in the game. Its a 2ss option. So really a better comparison is a Desperate Merc for the first half, rather than a 5SS model I don't really play many games where Minions are gone in the first couple of turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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