Nicodem, Chiaki and Purity.

[Ausplosions]

There was a thread a while ago discussing whether Chiaki can use Purity to push Nicodem.

There was never a resolution, can she as it pushes "Non-living". Not undead.

[Webmonkey]

aren't undead,.. by definition,.. non-living???

[Ratty]

As far as I can remember it doesn't as non-living will not set off Nicodem's ability.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

aren't undead,.. by definition,.. non-living???

Nicodem's ability means he can choose to be undead when affected by abilities that target undead.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Ratty

[Webmonkey]

so then,.. writen so that he can benefit from his own (or his crews) abilities,.. but not necessarily the powers/abilities of others,..??

[Ausplosions]

As far as I can remember it doesn't as non-living will not set off Nicodem's ability.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

Nicodem's ability means he can choose to be unliving when affected by abilities that target unliving.

Can choose to be Undead when effected by abilities that target Undead.

If we want to be completely correct Ratty.

:-P

---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ----------

so then,.. writen so that he can benefit from his own (or his crews) abilities,.. but not necessarily the powers/abilities of others,..??

He can choose to be affected by those as well.

[Saracenar]

This is interesting.

Nicodem can choose to gain Undead when he would be affected by a talent or spell that affects Undead.

Purity affects non-living models, which includes Undead.

I'd be inclined to say it would work.

[Webmonkey]

but since he can "choose",.. he could choose at the moment purity is cast upon/against him, to count as a living model, making the spell/ability otherwise useless.

[Saracenar]

but since he can "choose",.. he could choose at the moment purity is cast upon/against him, to count as a living model, making the spell/ability otherwise useless.

I think this debate is more centred around whether he can be affected by it for his own gain. There's no doubt that there is a situation where he is not affected.

[Webmonkey]

agreed,.. then the oppsite should also be true. He can "choose" to be affected by it if he desires.

[Ausplosions]

Ratty has already said, in this thread no less, that he can not.

It does not specifically affect undead, it affects non living.

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

Could it push Rail Workers?

They can be affected by things that affect constructs.

No, because it says unliving, not constructs.

[Kadeton]

Which would also mean that someone like Hoffman would be affected by it, and would not be able to ignore the effect with Perfect Machine because it doesn't target Constructs specifically.

[Saracenar]

Could it push Rail Workers?

They can be affected by things that affect constructs.

No, because it says unliving, not constructs.

They can't because the wording of their talent More Metal than Man is different. It says, specifically, that they "can be targeted by [...] spells that only target Constructs." Emphasis mine. This rule is quite more specific than Embrace Death.

As far as I can remember it doesn't as non-living will not set off Nicodem's ability.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

Nicodem's ability means he can choose to be unliving when affected by abilities that target unliving.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, and I know your say carries a lot of weight (if not ultimate deciding weight) but I am looking at the words logically here, as I would interpret them.

The v2 stat card says "This model can choose to gain Undead when affected by [...] spells that affect Undead."

Which to me would mean that he can be affected by Purity, as it does not need to target him, and it affects all non-living models, which includes Undead. My understanding is that a spell doesn't specifically have to say 'Undead' for Nicodem's Embrace Death to take effect. However, I struggle to find other examples of spells like Purity that affect 'non-living' models.

Purity affects non-living, so it affects Undead. Nicodem can gain Undead when affected by a spell that affects Undead. Purity affects Undead, so it can affect Nicodem if he so chooses. Please help me to understand how, as the words are written now, this is not possible.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Saracenar

[Paddywhack]

Ratty has already said, in this thread no less, that he can not.

It does not specifically affect undead, it affects non living.

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

Could it push Rail Workers?

They can be affected by things that affect constructs.

No, because it says unliving, not constructs.

I'm confused. Ratty's message says to me that he can be affected and you are saying that it means he cannot? Looking through my book, non-living is not a character trait, it is part of other traits (undead, soulless, construct - did I miss any?). Therefor I would say yes, it does affect constructs (and I was planning on using her when possibly facing Guild, etc.). I could be wrong, but otherwise what models are just "non-living"?

Now about Nicodem, I wasn't sure at first and was afraid it was a no, but thinking it over and thinking about the 'non-living' term made me doubt myself. Ratty's post seems to say that yes, he can choose to be affected by it and means that she is once again a possible option for me to use to boost his speed a bit

------------

Rereading Ratty's post, it seems he is contradicting himself. So which is it?

Edited December 26, 2012 by Paddywhack

[CrouchingMoose]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28403-Nicodem-s-Embrace-Death/page3

It was ruled here by keltheos that fresh meat, which is similar to purity, does affect nicodem. If this ruling has been changed i couldnt find it but yes it seems purity is allowed to push nicodem since at the time of checking to see if nico is living or nonliving, embrace death says nico can declare himself as undead for the purposes of purity or not. If he says yes im undead, then he becomes non living and is affect. If not, then he stays living and ignores purity

As for the railworkers, iirc yes it affects them because it says are affected by abilities that affect constructs rather than may be affected by abilities that affect constructs.

Rail workers are affected by things that affect constructs

Purity affects nonliving models

Constructs are non living

Purity affects constructs

Purity affects railworkers

Edited December 26, 2012 by CrouchingMoose

[Clevelander]

Rail workers only gain 'construct' when targeted by an ability which specifically targets constructs. Purity is a pulse which does not target. Purity does not interact with 'more metal than man' to make them into constructs, so they remain living and are unaffected by the spell.

Even if purity happened to target nonliving models, it would not affect the the rail workers. 'More metal than man' only takes effect when the targeted spell/effect only effects constructs(eg, Kaeris' Overheat and Ramos' Combat Mechanic, but not Leveticus' Entropic Transformation).

Edited December 26, 2012 by Clevelander

[Ausplosions]

All good points,

And it looks like we need Ratty back to clear this all up.

I'm in the position where I would LOVE her to be able to move Nico, but I don't think she can.

I do think Embrace Death needs a rewording too though.

[Ausplosions]

I'm confused. Ratty's message says to me that he can be affected and you are saying that it means he cannot? Looking through my book, non-living is not a character trait, it is part of other traits (undead, soulless, construct - did I miss any?). Therefor I would say yes, it does affect constructs (and I was planning on using her when possibly facing Guild, etc.). I could be wrong, but otherwise what models are just "non-living"?

Now about Nicodem, I wasn't sure at first and was afraid it was a no, but thinking it over and thinking about the 'non-living' term made me doubt myself. Ratty's post seems to say that yes, he can choose to be affected by it and means that she is once again a possible option for me to use to boost his speed a bit

------------

Rereading Ratty's post, it seems he is contradicting himself. So which is it?

Um, no he doesn't.

He (Ratty) specifically says it not be affected by non-living.

[Paddywhack]

As far as I can remember it doesn't as non-living will not set off Nicodem's ability.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

Nicodem's ability means he can choose to be unliving when affected by abilities that target unliving.

So I missed the word 'target' the first time, but that is moot anyway as the V2 Card says 'affected', not targeted. He says right that though that Nicodem can 'choose to be unliving when affected by abilities that (target - not actually in the rule though) unliving'.

How else do you read that but that he can choose to be affected by purity? Purity affects all non-living (I don't think there is an actual term 'unliving' in the book?) and Ratty says right there he can choose to be affected by abilities that affect non-living. However, his first statement says the opposite. I'm just wondering if he was going off the older wording of Nicodem's ability?

[Clevelander]

Change the word unliving to undead and the statements fit together. That is probably what Ratty meant, as that is what the card says.

Nico can choose to become undead when affected by talent or spell which affects undead. From Ratty's first quote we can tell that this is meant in a very specific way. Not by spells and abilities which affect non-living, or non-construct, or non-soulless. The Nico's ability works when another effect checks to see if Nico is specifically undead. Otherwise he could become undead when simply targeted by a melee/ranged strike, as strikes affect models, and undead are models.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Clevelander

[Gruesome]

I am leaving this thread more confused than before I entered.

[Kadeton]

All things that are Undead are also non-living. All effects that affect non-living affect Undead. However, effects that affect non-living do not specifically affect Undead.

Specificity is required for Embrace Death. The effect must state that it affects Undead (not just non-living) for Embrace Death to work.

That seems pretty clear from what Ratty has said?

[Gruesome]

All things that are Undead are also non-living. All effects that affect non-living affect Undead. However, effects that affect non-living do not specifically affect Undead.

Specificity is required for Embrace Death. The effect must state that it affects Undead (not just non-living) for Embrace Death to work.

That seems pretty clear from what Ratty has said?

But there is where people go around and around every time embrace death is discussed.

Things that "affect non-living" affect "Undead" because they are non-living. There is ambiguity there.

I understand the point you are making. It was my argument in the past.

But then Keltheos made a ruling that simply said:

"He's Undead when it suits him."

Now, lots of people can decide what was "meant" by that.

For me, whatever else anyone might want to say about Embrace Death and the definition and scope of "affects" as it relates to sub-categories of model types, yadda yadda yadda... I like that single sentence by Keltheos.

Until I see as concise and SIMPLE a sentence as that from a rules marshall saying otherwise, that's my rule...

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

Specificity is required for Embrace Death.

Also, I would say that's an assumption on your part. (An assumption I have made in the past)

[Ratty]

sorry about that mistype, indeed that should have been undead not unliving. I've fixed that.

abilities that affect Non-Living =/= abilities that affect Undead. It is very possible that a model could be Undead and not Non-Living (don't think there are any examples at the moment.) in the same way as some Constructs are Living. So Nicodem's ability should only work on abilitities that reference Undead directly.

[rancor709]

Fair enough.

[96p]

There are living constructs ?

[Ratty]

There are living constructs ?

if I remember correctly both Ryle and the Steamborg are living.