Jonas Albrecht Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Your basicly trying to play a box set vs a custom built list. Absolutely untrue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Absolutely untrue. Totally agree. Continue my LaCroix example. That box beats the Ortegas just box on box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Would you have been satisfied if the Latigo Pistoleros had been better? I believe most people don't like them. Oh absolutely, but it's hard to say if they would have any impact on the Perds in competitive play. In general, however, I would love Pistoleros that weren't just awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Oh absolutely, but it's hard to say if they would have any impact on the Perds in competitive play. In general, however, I would love Pistoleros that weren't just awful. The mind does boggle a bit at just what the hell Pistoleros are supposed to do... For a faction that has plenty of really great 4ss options, a 3ss one that is infinitely worse by comparison just doesn't cut the mustard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 The mind does boggle a bit at just what the hell Pistoleros are supposed to do... For a faction that has plenty of really great 4ss options, a 3ss one that is infinitely worse by comparison just doesn't cut the mustard... Let me put their best scenario forward. On a previous turn, anticipating the events in the following, you put your Pistolero within 4" of Perdita. The next turn rolls around and you win initiative, allowing yourself to pulse and give Perdita a 10 Df until she activates. Now, you can ask "for three points, that doesn't sound so bad". For three points in the same scenario, I can look at the top two cards of my deck, which is less reliable but just as effective as that temporary +2 to Df, and infinitely more useful to me throughout the game. Assuming I wouldn't just use initiative to take advantage of having initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 Assuming I wouldn't just use initiative to take advantage of having initiative. Exactly - they're a model that seems build around an ability that it rarely makes sense to use, as you'd just activate the models you wanted to protect in almost all circumstances... Added to which, the Family are the models that benefit least from this type of action, as you can't even make the argument that you could put this defense up to protect models before they activate while you activate others, as if they were in range for it, they'd be in range to companion... I'm firmly in the camp of "I don't need these models" when it comes to these guys and as you say, a Watcher can do far far more for a Guild crew... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Rofl at the comparison of watchers vs pistolero's. It really makes you wonder how good they were in playtest to get hit so hard. To me I would never buy them at all. Granted I understand companion on a 3 point model would probably be too good. But what really kills them in my eyes is insignificant. While they still would be lacking even if significant at least then they would enter the realm of potential playability. 3ss and insig when we have better minions at the 3 range that can actually claim vp's our what just destroys them in my eyes. Hell if crit strike was in ranged instead of melee, +1 point cost added to them and significant as well I'd consider using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 I don't think many Perdy Players were clamoring for a 3 point model anyway. A 4 point minion with much of the limitations removed would have pleased a lot of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Been mulling over the Pistoleros... Would you take them if their (All) action gave out Masks to Family members in a trait of your choice? No other changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Like a pulse, so it can affect more than one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Like a pulse, so it can affect more than one? Yeah, same deal as Lookout!, but without being limited to before their activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I'd say that's quite tempting. Depends if it's masks to Ca or Cb. Ca - more Obey. Cb - Fannin' and Trigger Happy (and also Anticipation if wanted). I'd be thinking about replacing a 4ss model for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I'd say that's quite tempting. Depends if it's masks to Ca or Cb. Ca - more Obey. Cb - Fannin' and Trigger Happy (and also Anticipation if wanted). I'd be thinking about replacing a 4ss model for it. You get to assign it to Ca, Cb, or Df. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Ooh, like a mini Nekima. Would they still be allowed to be 3ss? If so, I think I might take one. Only one though. Keep him back so he can buff when needs be. Activate before a companion chain and wreck face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Ooh, like a mini Nekima. Would they still be allowed to be 3ss? If so, I think I might take one. Only one though. Keep him back so he can buff when needs be. Activate before a companion chain and wreck face. I don't see why they couldn't still be 3ss. Insignificant is a huge drawback, and the action being (all) limits it very harsh ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbodog Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Hey Jonas, nice thread. I've been fiddlin' with the Ortega clan a bit lately, and I do feel the pressure of "how many high cost models" when planning the crew. I think it is exacerbated by the fact that they are all mask/ram needin' models! You just can't feed a full Ortega clan enough masks to get full value. So taking a couple and augmenting with some cheaper models (who could care less about masks in particular) is a good idea. So all arrows point to the pistoleroes - as the thread figured out. And they do currently stink badly. I have not had success the limited times I've proxied them. I can say this, I like the look of the models and may buy a set just to paint - but never to play. I think the idea of giving them a mask granting ability will be hard to balance and a little too much. Even though I just said that the limited masks are a problem for the Ortegas. I do think that's an important balance point for the models. Instead I'd rather just have good, cheap, usable models that feel Ortega-y. To me, that means they shoot and have companion. I'd do the following: #1 get rid of Ornery. #2 get rid of that useless (all) "Look Out" action. Replace it with nothing at all. #3 get rid of critical strike on the skinning knife. Finally #4 - I'd flip flop the Cb between melee and ranged, making them 4 with the knife and 5 with their pistol. Honestly, I'd take them in an Ortega list for 3 SS with just that. They'd feel super Ortega-y...decent shooters that fold in melee that can pull off some scary companion tricks. I like the (0) follow their lead action alot too. Plus they have a good stat line, shrug off and stubborn. They can stay insignificant at that point for 3 SS. They'd also then solve my problems of 1) too many expensive models and 2) too many things needing rams and masks specifically (well, at least they don't add to that problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudo Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 I agree that the Ortega's problem is to many models needing the masks. But is pistoleroes could dish out masks to other family members they would be far to good. Its just a balance thing i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticPangolin Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) Been mulling over the Pistoleros... Would you take them if their (All) action gave out Masks to Family members in a trait of your choice? No other changes. Oh my yes. However, the (All) action aspect of it would not be a drawback for Nino hiding in the back, and would make him horribly overpowered with Trigger Happy and In My Sights, and even "Where'd He Go?!". Santiago too to a lesser extent, high combat with "Is That All You Got?!" would make for an auto-kill with built-in Trigger Happy. I've been so horribly boned for masks most games that if it could even just apply to Ca (and/or Df) instead of Cb it would make life more interesting. I'm still taking Pistoleros in lists where the Strategy is not dependant upon significant minions (and mixing with schemes that insignificant models can accomplish, like the Guild-specific schemes) and I'm not finding them as inherently bad as just reading them would imply, but there is no way that they would feature in more than 40% of my lists. @Turbodog: That sounds really good. Edited December 28, 2012 by ArcticPangolin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 I agree that the Ortega's problem is to many models needing the masks. But is pistoleroes could dish out masks to other family members they would be far to good. Its just a balance thing i guess. Maybe an (all) action to give a single Ortega a Mask in a single trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Maybe an (all) action to give a single Ortega a Mask in a single trait. I think maybe make it a (1) or a (0), but have it only apply to the next Strike or Cast they make to avoid potentially infinite damage Nino (who due to very high Cb is only really prevented from shooting until his target is dead by the limitation of Masks). This wouldn't really be that helpful for Df triggers, but if memory serves, that's only helpful to Perdita anyway... If that was a really big deal, you could have it apply to the next duel the model makes, which means you could put it up early on Perdita for defence, but then give it to her again from a second Pistilero later in the turn for a decent Obey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 I think maybe make it a (1) or a (0), but have it only apply to the next Strike or Cast they make to avoid potentially infinite damage Nino (who due to very high Cb is only really prevented from shooting until his target is dead by the limitation of Masks). This wouldn't really be that helpful for Df triggers, but if memory serves, that's only helpful to Perdita anyway... If that was a really big deal, you could have it apply to the next duel the model makes, which means you could put it up early on Perdita for defence, but then give it to her again from a second Pistilero later in the turn for a decent Obey... Valid points. I would settle for one free, consumable Mask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amor sanguinis Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I cant even find this model.... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 I cant even find this model.... lol Book 3, homes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Book 3, homes. If you're planning murder mysteries, shouldn't that be: "Book 3, Holmes."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 One thing I would be up for in malifaux redux would be for dita to lose fast but gain nimble and instinctual. However I'm not holding my breath for that either but I wouldn't complain if it happened . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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