Unofficial Timed game solution

[CannonFodder]

I'm looking at running a couple tournaments in the new year and given we have a couple people who are not the fastest, and trying to bring in new players who will be slow. I thought of this as a possible way of balancing some issues with games that occur if a game does not go its full 6 rounds.

1) After normal time is called, all activation and turns continue normally, but only models unengaged may only take walk actions. engaged models skip their activation. If a model enters another models melee range they immediately stop their walk action and are considered engaged. If the activating model has longer melee range than other models and has not entered Their melee range, then they may finish their move action, but may not start a walk action if engaging another model.

2) charge action may be announced, and the model may move if full charge distance regardless of other models melee ranges, but it does not make an attack, and afterwards is considered engaged, and may not make any further actions.

3) Initiative flips occur normally, but no soul stones may be used.

4) If normal time is called before turn 5 starts, Announced Body guard is worth 1 VP point.

5) if you are engaging the target of deliver a message with a non-insignificant model at the end of turn 6, and have not delivered a message, then score 1 VP.

6) Supply wagon, moves like a normal model, and if engaged does not move at end of turn.

I realize everyone is going to say that people don't need more time but in MY LGS some of the newer players who I want to keep interested will need it. and playing for a day and not finishing a game is frustrating.

I would appreciate feedback on this.

Edited December 11, 2012 by CannonFodder

[Guy in Suit]

What is your objective here? It seems that there are lots of ways to game this for advantage to score a win. (Which is fine, if that's what you want - to force a clear winner once time has been called.)

[Tograth]

I have to say I dont agree with the idea. first, because it very obviously favours high model count crews, and secondly because the only time I could see it being necessary is in very low time limit tournaments.

if you have 100+ minutes to finish a game, generally its enough to bring the game to a conclusion. taking a whole day to play a game really isnt necessary, even if you are taking a large number of breaks.

[Adran]

I'm not sure I see where you are coming from Togath. The rules Cannonfodder has suggested are to try and encourage the games finishing, and making various things fairer if the game doesn't get to time.

I guess I see where you are going with the engaged models don't do anything anymore, but I don't know if I like it.

Its probably the best way to get the game to the end in not too much time, but I would be worried about it being abused. More so by experienced players than new players though so if you aren't expecting that to be an issue, then they are probably fine.

I assume you mean unengaged models can walk and interact, because if all they do is walk there doesn't seem much point to it.

I suggest get a few of your slower players to try it, and possibly get some players try and abuse it to see what happens.

[pgbsamurai]

In my experience games tend to go longer the more soul stones you have. You just have more models to worry about and more rules to read. If you really want to keep newer / slower players interested try doing a 20 or 25 SS tournament with 85 or 105 minute rounds instead of the 70 minute rounds suggesting in Gaining Grounds. This should help give the slower players time to get more turns in while not giving an advantage to the more experienced players.

Edited December 11, 2012 by pgbsamurai
grammar

[mythicFOX]

If players in your group need time I'd recommend giving it to them, just run longer rounds and/or smaller games. This approach looks like it's going to cause more problems than it solves, especially for new players.

How much testing have you done playing games with this approach?

[sharpobjects]

I'm looking at running a couple tournaments in the new year and given we have a couple people who are not the fastest, and trying to bring in new players who will be slow. I thought of this as a possible way of balancing some issues with games that occur if a game does not go its full 6 rounds.

1) After normal time is called, all activation and turns continue normally, but only models unengaged may only take walk actions. engaged models skip their activation. If a model enters another models melee range they immediately stop their walk action and are considered engaged. If the activating model has longer melee range than other models and has not entered Their melee range, then they may finish their move action, but may not start a walk action if engaging another model.

2) charge action may be announced, and the model may move if full charge distance regardless of other models melee ranges, but it does not make an attack, and afterwards is considered engaged, and may not make any further actions.

3) Initiative flips occur normally, but no soul stones may be used.

4) If normal time is called before turn 5 starts, Announced Body guard is worth 1 VP point.

5) if you are engaging the target of deliver a message with a non-insignificant model at the end of turn 6, and have not delivered a message, then score 1 VP.

6) Supply wagon, moves like a normal model, and if engaged does not move at end of turn.

I realize everyone is going to say that people don't need more time but in MY LGS some of the newer players who I want to keep interested will need it. and playing for a day and not finishing a game is frustrating.

I would appreciate feedback on this.

Go with 25-30 stone crew limit and 2 hour time limit. We just had a 3 round tournament, 30 stones, 2 hour rounds and finished the whole day in just under 6 hours because people didnt always use the full 2 hours. More than half the people in the tourney were new players.

The size of the game and time limit is all you need to adjust to find the sweet spot for new players to be as competitve as a new player can be in this game. No need to come up with all these special rules for the end of the game.

If you want to add a slight advantage to a new player over a veteran; have the new player choose the schemes for the veteran and the new player can keep his own schemes hidden but still score 2vp. That is more than enough IMO.

T

[CannonFodder]

I assume you mean unengaged models can walk and interact, because if all they do is walk there doesn't seem much point to it.

Adding the interact option I think is fair. I was thinking more about Breakthrough, Holdout & claim jump. Where you need model count in a certain location. I found announced hold out was 2 free VP and going for break through was virtually impossible.

One of main reasons I'm trying this is because the preferred day for a malifaux tournament is sunday and the LGS store opens officially at 1, but I've learned that if they open at 1:30 its early for them. So I would need to expect to start around 2PM, and most people want to leave around 7. so extending the time might be a little hard.

Also even at Gencon against other experienced players, time was a factor. 25 SS at 70 min we ran out, and I was only brought one crew I knew very well (Ophelia). I played one guy who ended up third and he even admitted that if time was not a factor I would have won.

[Forar]

I'm surprised with how many people don't think time is a factor in these games, especially considering the sizable thread we had after Gencon where being pressed for time or not making it to turn 5 or 6 were pretty common issues people mentioned.

I've never played in a tournament setting, but find that even with a veteran table top gamer as my opponent and some swift choices on my behalf, our casual play style make the games a lot longer than 70 minutes, or even 90. Even with just 5 figures per crew, so 10 total on the table (to start), 70 min across 60 actions gives barely over a minute per figure per activation. Obviously some time is gained as the game goes on and some figures are killed/buried/paralyzed/whatever'd, but at the same time when you get up to 35ss I imagine most crews are running a few more than 5, if not significantly more.

Anyway, long story short, the original request sought feedback regarding potential changes to let players wrap up the last few turns should they run out of time, and at a glance those seem like a reasonable approach to doing so. Ideally everyone will complete their game in the allotted time, but especially when dealing with newer players it's probably worth building in contingencies, rather than just accepting that some crews/strats/schemes will need to be accomplished within the first 3-4 turns or they're worthless/actively detrimental. Obviously there can't be a perfect balance, but one can try to account for the challenges, rather than simply ignoring them or telling people to run before they can necessarily even walk comfortably.

I do agree that a smaller cache size is probably a good idea. Personally, with a time limit of 90 or less I'd probably aim around 20-25ss, but recognize that some factions/crews would in turn be hampered (example: those that often rely on a single expensive figure for support, utility or other ends, where they'd end up with an extremely small list, but that in turn becomes a balancing point to a degree; do you take Hoffman and half the pool in his 'ride'?)

Edited December 11, 2012 by Forar

[mythicFOX]

There has to be a lower limit time wise. You can't run a Malifuax tournament in 15mins.

If you only have 5hrs, with three rounds that's 100mins/round including admin. Getting rounds in under that time is going to be very hard in reality.

I'd recommend running a short league over multiple weeks instead.

[Golden]

Let me run off topic for a second... I'm starting to get a little annoyed at people taking measures to hobble experienced players or make it "fair" for new people. Experienced players should have an advantage, period. New players should learn to use them as a resource. Also, personally, I don't paddycake my player base, they are expected to play the same game everyone else does. Give the players time to learn and they will rise to the caliber necessary. Until then, let them cut their teeth on league play and find a way to reward them for finishing within 2 hours or 70 mins or whichever you decide. Don't just change the rules; should your players travel to other circles or you end up having a guest join you for a tournament, it won't translate well, I fear.

[Forar]

Again, I'd like to point out that even games with 2 experienced players weren't necessarily making it to turn 5 or 6 during Gencon.

What about intentionally capping the game at a shorter number of turns? Perhaps 5 or even 4? Obviously there are schemes and strategies that need to be completed within X turns that might need adjusting due to them becoming easier or harder, but if the average and even veteran players can't always go the full distance, it might be a manner of easing the pressure to 'complete' the game in the allotted time.

Larger tournaments and venues even have seperate events that cater specifically to a mix of newer players and old guard veterans, but I imagine your average store trying to run one event in a day can't be that picky, and I don't feel it's 'coddling' anyone to show recognition to the fact that stacking the deck too heavily against newer players is not going to help drive participation.

Yes, newer players should try to improve, speed up their play and face a variety of opponents and factions/crews so they don't have to waste too much time going over cards and interactions, but this is a game with untold possible combinations of figures and powers, and all it takes is one or two snags to really set the timelimit back.

And finally, the experienced players already have massive advantages, in terms of crew building (synergy within the crew and possible counters to the opposing faction), scheme choices, positioning, hell; possibly knowing what the opponent's crew does better than they do! etc.

[Golden]

That proves my point. You just implied that playing the game normally, is stacking the deck against newer players.

I feel that you should preserve the rules of the game despite popular opinion.

Example: Last week I was playing against one of my newer players(started in August), he had never played against me and had received most of his experience from demo games with the other Henchman in my area, casual games with his brother, and other players in our group. After explaining how line of sight worked multiple times and informing him that he can ask me questions whenever he feels the need, before he makes a decision, he tried to target something with more than 3 inches of obscuring terrain between the shooter and the target. After he measured and I told him what happens, I explained that the action fails and he does not get to use the AP to walk instead and then shoot, a failed action equals a wasted AP. The look on his face clearly stated that this had never happened to him before, he was not yet expected to follow one of the most basic parameters of the game. 4 months in, hadn't thought of the repercussions of what was just explained to him, and its not his fault, no one actually held him to the rules because he was a new player.

I cannot express the distaste I feel towards the sentiment of making it fair for new players and the above situation. There is no making it fair for new players, your making it easier, when you make it easy for them, you stunt their growth. Have some faith in your players, encourage them to ask as many questions as they want, and tell them they can learn, but it will take some time to get all the information because there is a lot of it. The number one thing that will attract people is a bunch of players having fun, not Malifaux easy mode.

If you want a game with depth, complex interactions, and an amazing storyline play Malifaux. If you want easy mode play checkers...

P.S. This post was in no way meant to express malice or malcontent toward the author or posters on this thread, just the idea of changing rules for an officially formatted tournament.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Golden
content

[Forar]

How do you feel I did that, exactly?

I recognize that experienced players have several advantages, which you stated should be how it is.

But to say (and I paraphrase) "the time limit is fine learn to play faster" ignores the fact that even 'pros' playing at perhaps the top level of competitive Malifaux can struggle to fit 6 turns into the time limit.

[pgbsamurai]

How has any of this discussion "hobbled" experienced players? Whether it is two new players or a new and an experienced player, the game is going to slow down. The whole point of this discussion is to make it easier for everyone to get to turn 6 in a tournament. I consider myself an experienced player and have often found my tournament matches only getting to round 3 or 4 because my opponent was taking longer because they were newer. Getting to turn 6 is often going to go in favor of an experienced player versus a newer player because experienced players tend to plan out their turns more. (At least in my experience.)

The only time it came up that experienced players would have an unfair advantage was in implementing the rules suggested by the OP. Most of the suggestions on this thread have been to get players to turn 6, not to hobble or give an advantage to experienced players.

[nilus]

Let me run off topic for a second... I'm starting to get a little annoyed at people taking measures to hobble experienced players or make it "fair" for new people. Experienced players should have an advantage, period. New players should learn to use them as a resource.

Many new players find entering a tournament to be a very stressful and unfun experience. In areas where a large number of new players are starting but where there is also an established veteran base(for example if a new store opens in an area) running a tournament or two with some beginner friendly rules helps grow the player base.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Personally, I think there should be more tournament rules that punish new players. That's why, in my FLGS, we wager models on every match, and have an instant disqualify rule if you forget any card text. We also loudly shout at new players every five minutes to hurry up, and they lose a soulstone every time they need to ask a question.

This way, when they go to another meta environment, they'll be so tough and ready that they'll have an easy time taking over. It's for their own benefit, really.

[Forar]

Ah, a Darwinian approach to tournament play. Interesting.

Presumably the tears when you toss their lost figure into a kiln and watch it melt to slag are all the more rewarding after demanding they drop and give you 50?

[Golden]

Sorry, I missed a bunch of these replies while editing. Give me a few mins and I will have a response for you folks.

You can take one of my SS Tedpro, but I get one of yours for each finger I break with my hammer when you reach for it.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Larger tournaments and venues even have seperate events that cater specifically to a mix of newer players and old guard veterans, but I imagine your average store trying to run one event in a day can't be that picky, and I don't feel it's 'coddling' anyone to show recognition to the fact that stacking the deck too heavily against newer players is not going to help drive participation.

This made me feel like you were.

[CannonFodder]

The main reason I've listed these rules is that the game is designed to be 6 turn and cutting game short make certain things impossible for some crews, and you end up having to design you game around a 4 turn game instead of a 6 turn game.

Given a standard game some crews cannot realistically go for a block on hold out with out putting all their action in movement. Given a wlk of 4 and 4 turns that give you 8 possible action (on a normal fig) and to make it to the deployment zone you need to use 7 of your 8 actions just walking (you need to move OVER 24 inches so 6 is not enough).

As an experience player I've always found it frustrating I've lost more games because of time than anything else. Usually I'm in a position to get all my objectives for turn 6 but because I'm cut short on time I lose. Usually my opponent agrees if it was not for time I would have won.

When I explain this game to people I try and stress the fact that its not about mass damage, its about the objectives.

Some of my favorite wins are from just having the right guy the right place. I've had 1 nurse earn me 6 VP on the last turn after all else was killed, I've had Colette vs Hamelin came go to turn 5 with just a dance and a turn 6 was a mad scramble and trades for a claim jump.

One last note, how many other threads have we seen were people ask when does the game end, when all the models are killed, or do they get to do the last 2 turns to get the objectives. The consensus is that they have the chance to move into position for point, and are not cut short. This is the same principle.

All that said an done, Of those who agree with the principle of having a way to speed up the last little bit to allow objective to be scored, can think of constructive criticism they can add to improve a set of rules like this.

[Justin]

Just my personal opinion on running tournaments:

Time is always a factor in tournament play; not just in Malifaux, but any game system. The time limits on tournament games greatly affect how 40k, Warmachine, and Malifaux play. No matter what you do and what accommodations you make, there will always be a game or two which is decided by time. So, given that, I find that there are two acceptable ways to go about it:

1) Make it clear to players at the beginning of the round when time ends, give them 30, 15, and 5 minute warnings and then, when the time is up, the game stops right there. This does have the issue of people potentially stalling for advantage, but just make sure that stalling is clearly against the rules and then, if you think someone is doing it, use your best judgement.

2) Determine when you want the round to end and, about 30-45 minutes before you want the round to end, call last turn. Whatever turn the players are currently on will be the last and hopefully they have enough time to finish it up, but no new turns can start after that point. This has the advantage of guaranteeing one player will not unfairly get more actions than another, but has the disadvantage of potentially depriving players of a turn they may have had time to play.

Personally, I wouldn't add a bunch of rules about time beyond that. Not because they're bad, but just because they tend to cause confusion. And, in my opinion, the single most important thing about running a successful tournament is consistency. Everybody knows exactly what to expect, sure, you called last turn and they only got 5 turns instead of 6, but everyone knew that was a possibility going in. To a certain extent, in almost any game system, tournament play is going to look different than regular play. Your tournament crew will look different than your average crew, and time is one of those factors which shapes it.

And yes, tournaments may not be the best place for newer players, but just be sure there are other events (achievement leagues and such) which cater to them and they will be fine.

Again, just my two cents, hope it helped.

Personally, I think there should be more tournament rules that punish new players. That's why, in my FLGS, we wager models on every match, and have an instant disqualify rule if you forget any card text. We also loudly shout at new players every five minutes to hurry up, and they lose a soulstone every time they need to ask a question.

This way, when they go to another meta environment, they'll be so tough and ready that they'll have an easy time taking over. It's for their own benefit, really.

This seems like a good system, but I'm confused at the lack of corporal punishment.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Justin

[Golden]

How has any of this discussion "hobbled" experienced players?

Not necessarily in this thread specifically but it is something that has been addressed in snippets. Its more of a make the game easier on new players.

[LordZombie]

Personally, I think there should be more tournament rules that punish new players. That's why, in my FLGS, we wager models on every match, and have an instant disqualify rule if you forget any card text. We also loudly shout at new players every five minutes to hurry up, and they lose a soulstone every time they need to ask a question.

This way, when they go to another meta environment, they'll be so tough and ready that they'll have an easy time taking over. It's for their own benefit, really.

You got to be kidding on that, no way that is true. Experience and inexperience in the game is a factor, that is true, but it is not all the factors. Most of the players in my group are casual players and know their stuff. They run the same factions all the time so they know their stuff. Some of the players are very competitive and never hold back on their games. What is the point, you ask? Even the casual gamers who might be trying something new for the tournament are just as fast if not faster than the competitive players. You throw some competitive players in a high stakes tournament and yeah, they are going to slow to a newbies pace. When a place in the master is at stake, you don't just activate a model and use those 2 ap. No, they over think it, look at everything on the table, gauge distances to other models, do a quick number crunch on the odds of completing their action, think about what effects will affect the other models on the table if the action fails or successes. I don't think there needs to be anything done to the time or rules for tournaments. You know what you are going into weeks, if not months beforehand. New or veteran, experienced or inexperienced, tournaments are what they are. The new guy trying out the Guild for the first time is not going any faster or slower than the veteran Neverborn player who has to make sure all 8vp are in lock down every activation.

[Golden]

Many new players find entering a tournament to be a very stressful and unfun experience. In areas where a large number of new players are starting but where there is also an established veteran base(for example if a new store opens in an area) running a tournament or two with some beginner friendly rules helps grow the player base.

Beginner tournaments are great, because they are specified that they are for beginners. They are not supposed to have a typical competitive environment. In all honesty, I don't care if Beginner Tournaments implement an all inclusive cuddle Crotch-Bat bonus round Free-For-All. But the difference is in the name of the tournament.

[Justin]

You got to be kidding on that, no way that is true. Experience and inexperience in the game is a factor, that is true, but it is not all the factors. Most of the players in my group are casual players and know their stuff. They run the same factions all the time so they know their stuff. Some of the players are very competitive and never hold back on their games. What is the point, you ask? Even the casual gamers who might be trying something new for the tournament are just as fast if not faster than the competitive players. You throw some competitive players in a high stakes tournament and yeah, they are going to slow to a newbies pace. When a place in the master is at stake, you don't just activate a model and use those 2 ap. No, they over think it, look at everything on the table, gauge distances to other models, do a quick number crunch on the odds of completing their action, think about what effects will affect the other models on the table if the action fails or successes. I don't think there needs to be anything done to the time or rules for tournaments. You know what you are going into weeks, if not months beforehand. New or veteran, experienced or inexperienced, tournaments are what they are. The new guy trying out the Guild for the first time is not going any faster or slower than the veteran Neverborn player who has to make sure all 8vp are in lock down every activation.

I'm pretty sure he was joking...

[Golden]

Christ on a bike. Tell Halflingspy, I'm making more friends on the forums. I can't keep up with this torrent. LMAO.

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------

I agree with Justin. Consistency is necessary, I feel that changing the rules or implementing special rules undermines this most directly.

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

I only get to play if one of players needs to be punished. Usually I just rules marshall and demo on thursdays at my LGS.