Rail Workers

[wrabbit37]

I am not an Archanist player, so I have no real frame of reference here. My local playgroup does not seem to like the Rail Workers, but I've heard from other places that they have some good value.

The argument against them tends to be in comparing them to Large Steampunk Arachnids where my playgroup feels the bugs come out ahead. Anyone want to give me some idea as to why the Rail Workers come out ahead? Not really looking for a big debate on the Rail Workers - just trying to see where my group may not be seeing their value.

[merlinman]

Depends on terrain as LSA is arachnid. Rail workers can choose buff when attacking, mostly paired. Gets +1 cb when kang uses his 0. Both have brutal. LSA has more Wds and workers have slow to die. I personally like the workers as they can hit things easier but make 1 less attack. However LSA immune to moral duels also from being a construct.

It would depend on faction and strategy for what i use

Edited September 26, 2012 by merlinman

[LemmingStampede]

IMO, both options are pretty equal. The arachnid is more mobile and more durable, but the Rail Worker is more flexible. Either he can be more accurate from Paired, or he can ignore armor like the LSPA. And his moderate damage is better than the LSPA's. Shovel Faster can also help set up a target for Mei Feng to kill by applying a burning token in advance. I've been pretty happy with my Rail Workers, and have had them do some good work. And implacable assault means that if an opponent doesn't manage to kill them due to a metal gamin or something, they can really deliver a beating.

[96p]

The can shovel the Pain Train !

[Odin1981]

Does your local meta run blast template heavy? Do they run high # of terror models? Our models often expected to lonewolf it? I think off the top of my head those are kinda important questions to know before I'd answer honestly. If yes to two or three of them I could see why your local meta wouldn't value them.

[rancor709]

Rail workers, are a solid choice as is LSPA. The primary benefit for the rail worker is as has been stated flexibility and only drops a single counter as opposed 2 3 that lspa can. D

fighting additional i tend to favor kaeris and mei together so the extra burning token a turn is huge.

[nix]

Rail workers, are a solid choice as is LSPA. The primary benefit for the rail worker is as has been stated flexibility and only drops a single counter as opposed 2 3 that lspa can. D

fighting additional i tend to favor kaeris and mei together so the extra burning token a turn is huge.

Rail workers drop corpse counters while LSPA drop scrap counters. How is dropping a single corpse counter a benefit? I usually hear the benefit being the 3 scrap that a LSPA drops.

[rancor709]

Its a bbenefit in that it doesnt drop scrape more useful if your facing an opponent who can utillize scrape but not corpses. Situational for sure.

[decker_cky]

Rail workers drop corpse counters while LSPA drop scrap counters. How is dropping a single corpse counter a benefit? I usually hear the benefit being the 3 scrap that a LSPA drops.

Neither is a benefit in a Mei Feng crew - though either could be a disadvantage depending on the opponent (LSPA is a better choice against ressers for example).

[wrabbit37]

Does your local meta run blast template heavy? Do they run high # of terror models? Our models often expected to lonewolf it? I think off the top of my head those are kinda important questions to know before I'd answer honestly. If yes to two or three of them I could see why your local meta wouldn't value them.

We tend to be shallow on blast templates. Terror models depend on who the opponent is, though of late we've have not seen a lot of Resser or NB terror crews out there. I think we do tend to use more lone-wolf style models, though. There tends to be a higher value placed on models that can get the job done without too much assistance required from other models.

[nix]

Its a bbenefit in that it doesnt drop scrape more useful if your facing an opponent who can utillize scrape but not corpses. Situational for sure.

Neither is a benefit in a Mei Feng crew - though either could be a disadvantage depending on the opponent (LSPA is a better choice against ressers for example).

Ok, I understand now.... thanks!

*grin*

[CannonFodder]

Straight up without synergies, I think LSA is better.

With Kaeris & Mei Feng crew (or rail golem): the Rail workers are better, Extra fire tokens as a (0) is better than fire Golems. Also mandatory in my opinion with Rail Golems. Also being able to see Mei Fengs Steam threw the steam is very useful.

With Ramos: LSA are mandatory. for the 3 scraps

[Odin1981]

We tend to be shallow on blast templates. Terror models depend on who the opponent is, though of late we've have not seen a lot of Resser or NB terror crews out there. I think we do tend to use more lone-wolf style models, though. There tends to be a higher value placed on models that can get the job done without too much assistance required from other models.

That could mainly be why they aren't valued then. To me upon reading their entry they seem to be a more than just x type model. In that the sum of their parts isn't based on them (individually) bringing to the table but a conjunction of things encomposing them (wang at x distance for one of two abilities to affect them, how close one is to johan to benefit him, their distance to kaeris for healing her via her 0).

Granted I think they have situational uses. Against pandora for example she cannot target them due to more metal than man. Hypothetically (not a rules guru so I am unsure if this would be true) they would not be hindered by her wp/wp duel due to it not specifically targeting constructs. And i find shapes in the steam useful but the problem their is that other models also have it so they could fall into the odd man out syndrome.

Ultimately though maybe your local meta that throw down with arcanists just don't like their sculpt, or have models in their collections that would gel with them in a list. So they just don't feel inclined to use them. I know even though I don't play in your meta I would probably just run johan with kang (same wk/chg easy to stay with him and potentially be covered via steam vent from kang if running behind kang). However maybe what hurts them is if your local meta is very mobile centric I could see where 4/6 walk/chg could potentially be hard to swallow (same time however if you used them as 2nd wave models I believe they could be useful).

[FearLord]

Straight up without synergies, I think LSA is better.

With Kaeris & Mei Feng crew (or rail golem): the Rail workers are better, Extra fire tokens as a (0) is better than fire Golems. Also mandatory in my opinion with Rail Golems. Also being able to see Mei Fengs Steam threw the steam is very useful.

With Ramos: LSA are mandatory. for the 3 scraps

I think this is probably the big point - they have much better synergy with Kaeris and good synergy with Mei Feng (admittedly the LSPA also has decent synergy with her) and the Rail Golem...

The LSPA is also Special Forces, so this is a little limiting in some ways (if you don't want Kaeris, but do want Gunsmiths for example)...

[decker_cky]

i think the ability to have 3" melee range over most of your crew is pretty neat when you have mostly rail workers, mei feng and Johan. Add in the ability to give out burning tokens to either slow models or cause more damage (if they take slow they can't charge generally, meaning no attacks that turn). Could be frustrating for some crews to play against.

[wrabbit37]

Granted I think they have situational uses. Against pandora for example she cannot target them due to more metal than man. Hypothetically (not a rules guru so I am unsure if this would be true) they would not be hindered by her wp/wp duel due to it not specifically targeting constructs.

Can you explain this one to me a little? I don't have my book in front of me, so I can't see the exact wording, but I thought it meant they could be targeted by spells that target constructs, not that they could not be targeted by spells that do not specifically target constructs.

[Sniddy]

Yeh as far as I can tell they kinda get worst of both - unless you have a construct only buff about

This is what makes me go hmmmm a lot, all the down sides of living, all the down sides of being a construct - yeh being livings great for things like kang but it does kinda shaft you...as pretty sure it's not like perfect machine where you can choice not to be affected.

[Odin1981]

Can you explain this one to me a little? I don't have my book in front of me, so I can't see the exact wording, but I thought it meant they could be targeted by spells that target constructs, not that they could not be targeted by spells that do not specifically target constructs.

Sure I had to reread it also to make sure I didn't get a rules interaction confused:). It stats (the rule "More metal then man" not verbatim word for word cause its not allowed via posts stated by mods and such sry mate that they only can be targeted by talents and spells tha may only target constructs and that if/when they are targeted by said ability they act like they gain the construct characteristic).

So to me personally: I see that and interperate it as if a talent or spell specifically doesn't say target construct it can't be cast/used (in the case for talents on used) on them. So they if that is correct as to the intent and wording of the rule means they are really strong against direct casting type masters then. Because if they can't be targeted by the vast majority of spells in the game. If this is so I believe they could then potentially fit with Aramos a little due to being able to be mass obeyed by his 2 spell that targets constucts in his pulse area (due to the interaction of more metal then rule). Granted they aren't effected by his mark but because of more metal than.. they could find a place with him.

I know your not on at the moment but when you check back does that clear it up a little for you mate?

Edit: actually upon looking at mark of invention it is a talent so technically would apply to railworkers so while they might not drop scrap they could be used and still gain a movement buff from aramos as well.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Odin1981
didn't know classification of mark of invention off the top of my head

[Ausplosions]

Jesus. No.

It's like Nicodem choosing to be undead.

They can be constructs for spell that target constructs. And living for spell that do not.

Of course spells that target living models can target them. They are living.

But they (if you wish) can also be targeted by spells that affect constructs.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Ausplosions

[FearLord]

That isn't right - More Metal than Man means that they can be targeted by talents and spells that may only target constructs, not that only talents and spells that target constructs may effect them...

Basically, they are living models, but when someone wants to use an effect that could only be used on a construct on them, they become Constructs...

[Odin1981]

It says this model may only be targeted by talents and spells that may only target constructs in the first sentance of the rule. So in theory what I said above would apply. Maybe someone needs to pose a question on the rules forum for clarification.

I'm no rules marshal so don't take what I say as law. But the way it is currently worded that is the perspective I take out of it so it is possible that is correct.

Nevermind I misread it. Standard new book misread it says they can be targeted... my bad, my mistake.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Odin1981

[FearLord]

It says this model may only be targeted by talents and spells that may only target constructs in the first sentance of the rule. So in theory what I said above would apply. Maybe someone needs to pose a question on the rules forum for clarification.

I'm no rules marshal so don't take what I say as law. But the way it is currently worded that is the perspective I take out of it so it is possible that is correct.

It doesn't say that though - the first line is "This model can be targeted by Talents and Spells that may only target Constructs."

There is one "only" in that sentence, not two, which would totally change the meaning..

[Odin1981]

Yeah i edited comment 21 to reflect I misread the ability I thought it said can only when it infact just says can so I hiccup'd there.

Standard new book new rule mistake sorry for potential misinformation in past posts of mine in the thread ladies and gentlemen.

[FearLord]

But they (if you wish) can also be targeted by spells that affect constructs.

Its at the caster's choice, not the controller of the Rail Crew model - anyone is free to target them with Talents and Spells that only target constructs - the controller of the Rail Crew model cannot decide that they won't be affected.

[CannonFodder]

The More Metal than Man ability lets casters like ramos, Heal and make them reactivate next, but not be affected by aRamos mass obey since its not targeting. Also Vonschill cannot give them slow.

I don't think they wanted them to be Full constructs or like steampunk abominations, but more than a normal human, but not full on cyborgs.