*Jack* Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi all, Just a quick thought that hit me, and something I was musing over. As the title says, why is graves a nephilim? He's a beatstick, and its not like the nephilim havent already got that pretty well covered. I dont feel it makes sense given he's human either. I can understand tannen being a woe more, but am still put off by the fact he's human. He has some cool debuffing abilities... that the woes have decently covered already Just thought it was odd. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimH Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Having not read the book I'm just making assumptions here but presumably Mr Tannen was a born Neverborn (in the same vein as Candy and Baby Kade who are both Woes) whereas Mr Graves was a human who is being twisted into a Neverborn (like Tuco who is also Nephillim). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 They are both Neverborn. They have inhabited the bodies of humans in order to hide among them and serve the Hungering Darkness. Not sure why they went with Nephilim and Woe other than to make them more easily usable by other masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 They are both Neverborn. They have inhabited the bodies of humans in order to hide among them and serve the Hungering Darkness. Not sure why they went with Nephilim and Woe other than to make them more easily usable by other masters. Just to add to what Paddywhack has said here. It is my belief that Mr. Tannen is a Woe (gamemeta-wise) because his abilities fit into the Woe paradigm of making others suffer. Whereas Mr. Graves fits very well (metagame-wise) into the Nephilim "beatstick" paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) Yeah, it think both Paddywack and Rameses are correct. There's no apparent fluff connection between them and the nephilim or woe, as far as we can read into what's in the book. They are both refered to as Neverborn Skinwalkers, actually. I think it's the first time we see that mentionned. Maybe it is a type of creature, but "skindancing" could also be an achieved process...wich could mean that any type of Neverborn could skindance. If that is true, then the original neverborn that got into Mr. Graves could have been Nephilim, and the one that got into Mr. Tannen was a woe. Edited September 15, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Wolfe Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) Skinwalking, how to make neverborn characters playable in the RPG? Anyway, interesting...I had thought the same myself but was hoping there would be an explanation in the book. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I wonder when this will be explored (since fluff is now less of a part of new book releases). Edited September 15, 2012 by Pagan Wolfe typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Paddywhack and Rameses are on it IMO. Rameses said almost exactly what I was planning on saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Skinwalking, how to make neverborn characters playable in the RPG? Anyway, interesting...I had thought the same myself but was hoping there would be an explanation in the book. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I wonder when this will be explored (since fluff is now less of a part of new book releases). Exactly my thoughts...the typical Nephilim are going to be rather obvious antagonists in the rpg, so having them as skindancers might help making them more subtle, and by the same token able to interact more closely with player characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 They've kinda always been haven't they? Doppleganger is the most obvious, but isn't Viks twin a Malifaux native that took her shape? Aren't a lot of the Neverborn in assumed shapes already? Like Lilith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) These are different from the typical shapechanging abilities we've seen before from neverborn. They have entered the body of humans and created a personality with the memories of the former host. Edited September 15, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 That is different and cool. I need to read that fluff........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 They've kinda always been haven't they? Doppleganger is the most obvious, but isn't Viks twin a Malifaux native that took her shape? Aren't a lot of the Neverborn in assumed shapes already? Like Lilith? victoria is different, they were the same before they met, in fact the Neverborn vik is just confused about it as regular Vik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 The Neverborn Vik IS a Doppleganger - while it has assumed her shape, Vik cuts it with the Masanine and leaves her body intact, but destroys the evil spirit within. ---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 PM ---------- As for Tannen and Graves, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Twins being Nightmares... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undisclosed Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Well, the twins are usually a nightmare for their opponent. I'm here all week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 The Neverborn Vik IS a Doppleganger - while it has assumed her shape, Vik cuts it with the Masanine and leaves her body intact, but destroys the evil spirit within. ---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 PM ---------- As for Tannen and Graves, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Twins being Nightmares... She was the same before she got hit by the Masaume, vikotria was only able to see the creature beacuse of mas amine, also would said creature be what controls Avikotia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) As for Tannen and Graves, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Twins being Nightmares... Only if Nephilim and Woes can indeed "crawl" (or more precisely skinwalk) into the body of a human and steal it's persona. If so, that's a seriously scary ability...and extremely potent rpg material If it's an entirely new caste of beings, then it doesn't make sense to tag them with the traits, as they should both be "Skinwalkers" instead. Edited September 15, 2012 by Sybaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Either way, there are some really cool interactions going on all over the world of Malifaux....enough to make me want to start RPGing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevorin Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Im surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I seem to remember the first reference to Mr. Graves was when he froze to death traveling with Marcus (was it?) in book 3. Was penned as "Mister Graves" then. Was he then possessed? Course I dont have book 4 yet (still in the mail) and may be missing important writing for him in that book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Im surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I seem to remember the first reference to Mr. Graves was when he froze to death traveling with Marcus (was it?) in book 3. Was penned as "Mister Graves" then. Was he then possessed? Course I dont have book 4 yet (still in the mail) and may be missing important writing for him in that book. I don't recall the names, but there were a bunch of people that died with Joss....going to see Raspy (IIRC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Wolfe Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Ok...long time since I read book 1, time to get it off the shelf. Zorida, she is (was) human...what's her story? I remember Tuco's tale, but it seems that more than a few humans have gone 'native'. Oh, and cows too if I remember correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 From my perspective, Zoraida is still human in mind and spirit, but her heart has shifted to Neverborn over time...so that even Lilith considers her one of them. Tuco got corrupted by Nekima's "interrogations". It could mean that a nephilim got inside through skinwalking, but it seems more like a real transformation of the human into a nephilim (weirdish but..eh). Neverborn have time and again shown the ability to change shape according to their needs or whims, and now some of them can possess humans in a permanent manner. @ Sevorin: Thanks for the Mr. Graves's reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Jack* Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Im surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I seem to remember the first reference to Mr. Graves was when he froze to death traveling with Marcus (was it?) in book 3. Was penned as "Mister Graves" then. Was he then possessed? Course I dont have book 4 yet (still in the mail) and may be missing important writing for him in that book. I don't recall the names, but there were a bunch of people that died with Joss....going to see Raspy (IIRC) Mister graves was a mountain guide in book 3 iirc, taking joss to see rasputina. I think he died though? Or atleast dissappeared. Nothing about reading it made me think he was the casino bouncer, other than having the same name. As an aside, him dissappearing would be quite neverborn-ey. Which is cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 As for Tannen and Graves, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Twins being Nightmares... The Twins are the Malifaux version of Succubus and Inccubus, two creatures that haunt humans in their dreams with forbidden fantasies of lust and sexual depravity... so yes they are Nightmares and should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 The Twins are the Malifaux version of Succubus and Inccubus, two creatures that haunt humans in their dreams with forbidden fantasies of lust and sexual depravity... so yes they are Nightmares and should be And Woe and Nephilim and and and... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I think it has something to fact that there is two of them and the Nephilim and woes are the two main charactoristic's of the Neverborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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