Jonas Albrecht Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I wouldn't say crap, but definitely a lackluster model with some design oversight and unsatisfying purpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 As a primarily Guild player, I've done a little reading, and have noticed that the general consensus seems to be that aSonnia is incredible, aJustice is workable, aPerdita is an awesome model (but that what she gains has a lot to overcome in what she loses) and that aHoffman is kinda crap (hyperbole). Their $20-35 pricetag (from my usual seller) makes a not-insignificant barrier to entry for something that might prove to be actively detrimental (at least for the more situational avatars). Now, I'm not saying I expected them to be pure 'upgrades' over the base form. I'm glad that they represent a variety of shifts to emphasize a variety of facets of the game; some alter a master's playstyle from one (say, support) to another (say, beat stick), but for the time being I can't see myself getting any unless I found a good deal. Maybe one, at least to get some experience in with the mechanic (focusing on meeting the criteria, learning to time it coming out, etc). Also, I think between 7 players so far we only have 1 avatar (and I don't think that's even seen table time yet), so there's also a general emphasis on learning and really grasping the base mechanics before we collectively branch out into other facets just yet. +1 These are nice little collectables for those who have bought everything else, but if I want a different playstyle, I would just buy a Master that has a different playstyle. At that cost, I can get an entire Master's Starter Box. ---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ---------- I am not a Guild player but I have a single small Guild crew. I plan to fill out this crew (with a Witchling Handler and Fire Gamin) JUST so I can play Sonnia's Avatar. It's all I want from the Guild. So yeah, rather popular I think. Kirai I kind of wrote off. She was just not quite there. I've been out of the game for a bit and the revert on her damage spread actually makes me want to put her on the table. I think she is fun, I just couldn't justify it. Oh and the (much needed) Shikome cuddle makes her more viable IMO. I have moved to Neverborn and haven't delved much into the Avatars. I am getting Zoraida's avatar this week though. She just looks like so much fun. I played Pandora for the first time today and felt dirty making McMourning slit his own throat. I know Avatar is seen as a downgrade which actually tempts me into it. I just don't think I want to play her much otherwise... You can't Obey a Master......... and I am not sure if you can have a minion attack itself........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaggisMcMutton Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Just my personal opinion and personal experiences.... Masters I own and play: Sonnia,Hoffman,Perdita,Lady J,Rasputina,Collette,Vikorias. Avatar I own and use: Avatar Sonnia avatars I plan to eventually get, but not use all the time:Perdita,Lady J,Collette,Vikorias. Avatar Sonnia can be really powerful, and for the most part is an upgrade from her normal form. Plus the model looks amazing! I'd say at least most of the time when I take Sonnia, I attach her avatar. Collette avatar I can't remember her details right now, dunno if I want to lose her totems to avatar up. But they look like alot of fun to paint and also make for good alternative colette models. Perdita avatar and Lady Justice avatar look great and I would use them on a conditional basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dookieagain Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Thats just it, you get Collodi to have access to the Grave Spirit Totem. Then simply link the Totem to the Dead Rider. You now have a Dead Rider with Armor 2 It's a small combo that goes a long way, the only problem is that the Grave Spirit can't cast any of Collodi spells without Cheating or being really lucky. Okay I am the worlds lone proponent of avatar Leveticus and I admit it's 90% theme and cool models, but I think he's highly underrated. Admittedly against top tier crews the horsemen are a liability, Colette bagged 20 points of models with her mannequin replacement in three turns and since they don't get soulstones masters can have their way with them, but the horses are hyper mobile and fairly versatile. And hooded rider is an amazing workhorse piece with darkness as 100% ranged immunity can cripple certain crews. Second I think the horse crew works okay at any point value. I mean the two I consider must haves are only 17 points together (Pale and Mechanical) I think the buffs from the other two riders are way less vital. aLeviticus is a ten wound spirit with the ability to Rez on any living rider as well as get a healing flip when he or a minion kills a model. He doesn't really need regen 1 and flame wreath is cool but most people aren't even going to hit him. The biggest issue at lower points is not having enough significant models to hold stuff, but you take the watcher or some night terrors and you've got that beat. I just think that although you have to build a team around it you don't know how crazy good properly run aLeviticus is. He can one hit almost any model in the game, including masters. He ignores terrain completely. He has a 17" threat range and he doesn't die even when you kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 At the moment my Avatar collection consists of APandy, AViks, AZoraida and AMarcus. But I must admit, I haven't really used my Avatars all that much. In fact they've been in my lists for maybe a dozen games in total? To be honest that's more a result of being able to carry only so much in my Magic Bag of Holding (ie. work bag), but I digress... AMarcus - Taken in a few games, manifested twice from memory. The first time was game-winning, using Roar to make a Viks crew fall back and claim the victory. The second time he was okay, but it was ultimately unecessary. He's a mid-late game avatar who's best used when he's hanging out with a crew of beasts to support, but having both multiple beasts and a Manifested Marcus around on the same turn can be tricky to pull off. APandy - On paper I really like her, and think she has great utility in several strategies (not just claim jump). But have only taken her in one game, where she didn't manifest before she'd already curb-stomped the enemy crew. AZoraida - This is the gal I've Manifested most often. What I've found is that she's awesome with Jack Daw, and her damage output is useful when you're running out of beaters. But she's otherwise not a major shift in playstyle, and while she's great, I wouldn't consider her essential. AViks - Taken and Manifested in one game, but what a game it was. She's a little less glass cannon but a whole lot more killy and very, very fast. She's got some weaknesses (like vs "can't charge me" models like the Duet) but otherwise she's arguably harder to deal with than regular Viks. She's a very fun addition to the crew but when it comes down to it, all she adds to the crew is damage, and doesn't really represent the shift in playstyle that can make other Avatars particularly good. Random note - Manifesting with the Viks is much easier than it looks on paper, since you can fulfil conditions or kill stuff with the first Vik, then Manifest with the second. I'm actually interested in trying out Avatar Lilith sometime soon (maybe for the Australian GT, depending on missions). I think her crazy forest tricks in particular could be really good for area denial and generally just being a pain for your opponent to deal with. One final thought - manifesting is a great way to strip insignificant off your master vs Hamelin. That alone makes me consider any non-Guild Avatar an auto-include against that Master (Guild have Ortegas with Shrug Off and Witchlings with Dispel Magic, so they're fine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blog Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I have Seamus' and McMournings right now. I include them most of the time. Seamus' more often though. I plan on getting Kirai's once I figure out what her crew will be doing once she manifests because she does a complete 180' when she manifests. I dont have Nico's and dont plan on getting his, at least for a while as Nico is my weakest master for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 We played an Avatar throw down where you HAD to manifest in the end closing phase of Turn 1, or you could start manifested. Kirai's Avatar was very effective at jumoing a bit around the board and wiping things off the board. I still feel even after finishing the game I played though that I would very rarely bring her. Solid as she is I think basic Kirai just really edges her out for flexibility, and speed. Kirai's Avatar can seriously lay out some hurt if you can keep her alive, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 We played an Avatar throw down where you HAD to manifest in the end closing phase of Turn 1, or you could start manifested. Kirai's Avatar was very effective at jumoing a bit around the board and wiping things off the board. I still feel even after finishing the game I played though that I would very rarely bring her. Solid as she is I think basic Kirai just really edges her out for flexibility, and speed. Kirai's Avatar can seriously lay out some hurt if you can keep her alive, however. To me she is pretty much an autoinclude, she has saved me a game by herself and given me a fighting chance in another 2. And if you don't need her, well, no automanifest till turn 6 (killing twice with Ikirio is easier said than done) and I'd dare say that if you go that long without needing to manifest, than probably you already won or won't mind going into face beating mode to finish it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 What have people found about her manifest requirements? The Ikiryo one seems pretty difficult and very unreliable, so do you find yourself getting the "Spirit in 2 turns" much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Since Kirai needs to be constantly on the move and in spirit form to heal herself, it pretty much happens without you even noticing. Anyway, Kirai is a turn 4-5 manifest most times unless the game has gone real bad, last one I had to manifest turn 3 and thanks to her being instinctual and having 2 awesome 0 actions I was able to move 12" and finish up Sonnia Creed, but it isn't a best case scenario by far. Basically, there's no real need to force the Ikirio to try and net kills to get the requisites going since going spirit twice is very easy and you usually shouldn't be in a hurry to get her out. AKirai is a contingency measure more than anything, though don't expect to have too many spirits hanging around to use her vengeance tricks. I haven't tried to do a list that actively looks for the avatarization though, so it may be possible to make a list where she has a good number of spirits still alive to get the biggest bang out of all her vengeance shenanigans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I personally always found the 2 stones to be vastly more effective for the totality of the game than her Avatar. Mainly because as regular Kirai, if I'm playing her well I have numerous ways to stay alive and can continually summon new threats. Once I avatar she becomes a gigantic threat, but aside from the ability to use SS she is as easy to kill as Datsue-ba, especially as she loses her self heal. Although to be fair if you have Seishin to burn they can blow themselves up to give her a healing flip. And I would still by her avatar even if I never used it, it is a fantastic buy for the amount of metal in it, and it is a gorgeous model that was exceptionally fun to paint. Just a personal thing. As far a manifesting, I find her requirements very easy. The way I play her she is probably the easiest manifest of all the resser avatars, as in the games where I have taken her I always have both requirements before I even get close to the point of needing to bring her out. I think this is partly because I don't summon the Ikiryo out on top of really strong enemies unless I need to. I have her jump around killing objective runners, or poor Df threats so that my opponent has less activations, less board control, and Kirai heals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 You know, I see "it's a contingency plan" assigned to a few avatars, and I gotta say, that's a very underwhelming design goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 You know, I see "it's a contingency plan" assigned to a few avatars, and I gotta say, that's a very underwhelming design goal. Not when they clearly stated that they did not particularly intend for them to be "super power-ranger upgrades". The way I heard it explained is that they were intended to be "side-grades" not "up-grades". It just seem like some of them are more clearly upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 You know, I see "it's a contingency plan" assigned to a few avatars, and I gotta say, that's a very underwhelming design goal. May seem that way to you, has certainly paid off for me in a few games already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izikial Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I can see how it anouys some people, they cost a lot of money, and it a bit of a pian if you don't get to use the moddel, also I feel the way the lore discribes it they should be upgrades, but that's jus how I feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 You can't Obey a Master......... and I am not sure if you can have a minion attack itself........ Not Zoraida. I'm enjoying Zoraida (also, the older card I have for Zoraida actually doesn't have the non-Master line on Obey. I realized that after a different game entirely when I had Lady Justice kill the Judge. I plan to order a new Zoraida card during Gencon sale) It was Self-Loathing that I killed McMourning with. Flipped and the last card was Red Joker. Flip again for a weak and he just did 8 damage to himself (after he just took two for failing the WP duel for my Sorrow and Pandora). Like I said, this was my first time playing Pandora and this was against a more experienced player. And I felt dirty for doing it. I am tempted to explore her Avatar because of the general views towards it. Yeah, maybe I will only ever play Pandora on those strategies where her Avatar is useful, but it seems just a tiny touch more fair than just playing Pandora all the time. My Zoraida avatar arrives today though. Get it assembled for a game tomorrow. /glee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I personally always found the 2 stones to be vastly more effective for the totality of the game than her Avatar. Mainly because as regular Kirai, if I'm playing her well I have numerous ways to stay alive and can continually summon new threats. Once I avatar she becomes a gigantic threat, but aside from the ability to use SS she is as easy to kill as Datsue-ba, especially as she loses her self heal. Although to be fair if you have Seishin to burn they can blow themselves up to give her a healing flip. And I would still by her avatar even if I never used it, it is a fantastic buy for the amount of metal in it, and it is a gorgeous model that was exceptionally fun to paint. Just a personal thing. As far a manifesting, I find her requirements very easy. The way I play her she is probably the easiest manifest of all the resser avatars, as in the games where I have taken her I always have both requirements before I even get close to the point of needing to bring her out. I think this is partly because I don't summon the Ikiryo out on top of really strong enemies unless I need to. I have her jump around killing objective runners, or poor Df threats so that my opponent has less activations, less board control, and Kirai heals. I mostly agree with you, it may just me being not good enough with her yet and really appreciating to have something to fall back on if the seishin factory goes to hell, or if my hands are giving me hell. I am very shikome heavy when it comes to summons so I do tend to eat my resources very quick, though have had a couple of games where I had no crows in hand and well, I'm addicted to the bird women, should probably give onryo more of a chance to not deplete my resources so fast. I do disagree on the avatar's durability, as long as you have a few seishins to take hits for you, she is hardy as hell and since most times, each time she downs something, a new seishin to take another one for the team. She can deal a good amount of punishment and with 3-4 attacks on her activation easilly all with a nice 7 cb stat, choosing WP or Def and with a very respectable 3/4/6 damage grid that ignores armour, it's very realistic to expect a kill or 2 to replenish her shield. ---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ---------- Alviaran, as for your reasoning for going with aPandy, frankly, they are still playing vs Pandora for 3-4 turns and she can have most matches won at around turn 4, so don't bother using her to "handicap" yourself. Best you can do is crew swap to help your local guys to deal with her and so on or change it up to another master more often to dilute the hate. While I do love all the resurrectionist avatars and I feel I'm the only stout knight for aKirai, there are a bunch of avatars I just look at and don't really see the point, aPandy and aDreamer are a couple of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Not when they clearly stated that they did not particularly intend for them to be "super power-ranger upgrades". The way I heard it explained is that they were intended to be "side-grades" not "up-grades". It just seem like some of them are more clearly upgrades. Even as sidegrades, "bring this out when things turn to $$$$$$$$" doesn't make me want to run out and drop thirty bucks on a model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Even as sidegrades, "bring this out when things turn to $$$$$$$$" doesn't make me want to run out and drop thirty bucks on a model. And like me and some other people have found out, I find that it works. Good for you for not liking them, you have made it quite clear in every thread that so as dares tu whisper their name, but nobody is making you use them and hell, you should be happy they aren't the autoincludes they could have been because then it would have become "plonk thirty bucks if you even want to compete" and I'd dare say we can both agree that would be quite worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dookieagain Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Even as sidegrades, "bring this out when things turn to $$$$$$$$" doesn't make me want to run out and drop thirty bucks on a model. Well I think part of it is, having seen your blog, that you are much more interested in the rules aspect and for you the models are very abstract basically irrelevant components. I think for hobbyists in particular or those who enjoy the lore and characters the avatars give you a great way to open up options for a character you love, and create a nice centerpiece model. If your only goal is raw efficiency of play and superiority of rules then most of the avatars, outside of Sonnia, Ramos, and the Ressers are going to probably look a bit underwhelming. But then again pretty much all the crews fail that test too aside from the book 2 masters and pandora. I think the avatars are useful if you're attached to a character and want to open up other crew/play style options. Also from a visual perspective. I love my avatar Leveticus and his 4 horsemen. Plus it's a way to use a character who I like from the lore and play him in a very different way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcXON Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Okay I am the worlds lone proponent of avatar Leveticus and I admit it's 90% theme and cool models, but I think he's highly underrated. Wait, why are you the only one? I said I play the guy! Just because I don't play the 3 rider plus canine remain list doesn't mean I don't like aLevi.... Now take that back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Wait, why are you the only one? I said I play the guy! Just because I don't play the 3 rider plus canine remain list doesn't mean I don't like aLevi.... Now take that back! I thought the rider list only used two riders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dookieagain Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Wait, why are you the only one? I said I play the guy! Just because I don't play the 3 rider plus canine remain list doesn't mean I don't like aLevi.... Now take that back! My apologies. I am curious though with the collodi dead rider list, dont you find avater Leveticus a little hamstrung without the melee expert? You can live without the crow, although pale rider tends to almost always do well for me. Aside from once when an Ortega red joke red him and flipped trigger happy twice. It just seems like without at least two riders you aren't getting many of his synergies, and wasting a full avatar turn to summon one has rarely seemed like something I had time for, but I've mostly played him in tournament games which were ending by turn five. Also I usually only use 2 riders. But sometimes three. I think dead is the best as a minion but the worst with aLevi cause he's so high cost and his buff is meh. But I'm also a bit of a death star player. Comes from loving the models more than the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Even as sidegrades, "bring this out when things turn to $$$$$$$$" doesn't make me want to run out and drop thirty bucks on a model. I know. But I am glad I got them. I know people that do not like good whiskey. That does not makes any sense to me either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forar Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I know people that do not like good whiskey. That does not makes any sense to me either. Good whiskey has a chance to be actively detrimental to your evening? Hopefully more rarely than some of the more situational avatars! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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