Need help vs a specific Hamelin strat (and general Hamelin non sense)

[Alviaran]

So, my buddy has thrown down the gauntlet vs his Hamelin this week. I KNOW he is trying to game me since him and his brother have basically snickered constantly the last week. He is getting his Avatar and there is something about him ending up with a bucket full of soulstones. He has also called it out as Shared Slaughter. (Yeah, I really am being gamed)

This is all I know. I'm still not sure what he is going to do. I've heard something about basically Hamelin, Nix and Stolen left on the table, leading me to believe he is going to sac his rats for soulstones or some such (apparently there is some soulstone factory trick with Hamelin that I have not been able to find/figure out).

So, in general, what is the best way for Neverborn to deal with Hamelin? I've thought about just trying, well, slaughter him via Dreamer bombing him, potentially with Alps (since Rats will take the two wounds likely to finish them off, earning me pts for killing them at least) or trying to run Pandora (who I have no experience with. I plan to only play her once for our current league and then shelve her because I've heard how unfun she is)

But more specifically, if anyone is familiar with the trick it sounds like he is going to try for, can you give me any pointers? Originally, he called out specifically Dreamer, but then amended and said, "Pandora would be fine too". I just don't want to get a game of me walking away from the table turn 3 because this just got terrible. I want to at least put up a fight.

[Joel]

In a slaughter, every rat he kills gives you points. Kidnap on rats gives you another 2vps. I'd be tempted to take zoraida as master and take bodyguard for another 2vps. You can then also take gunsmiths (blast damage, leadstorm, smouldering heart) and models that can fly to keep away from stuff, while having ranged attacks.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Joel

[FoolWithTheFez]

In a slaughter, every rat he kills gives you points.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. You have to be the one to kill or sac a model to gain points from it in slaughter.

Yes, he will probably be using Drain Souls to sac his own models for soulstones. I don't have specific counter, but some very vague advice. First, make sure you pick schemes that can be accomplished without killing his models (no kill protege or the like). Your crew is very fast, try diving in there and killing as much as you can before he can sac it. Finally, remember he won't have much on the table to deal with once he starts killing his own models so you should be able to apply plenty of pressure to what is left.

[Alviaran]

I don't think so. They say to note the cost for every ENEMY model that a player kills or sacrifices. He is doing it to his own. Meanwhile, if he sacrifices them and leaves them off the table, he has denied me the ability to score on them (at the same token, I can do the same with Dreamer and just bury the crew).

EDIT: I think I have at least one plan to just game him in return via Dreamer (I do have access to all the Neverborn masters and Collodi. The only models I don't have are Avatars, Waldgeist, Silurids, Gupps and the Doppleganger). Just need to figure out a second scheme for the game against him.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Alviaran

[Joel]

My mistake. Sorry.

In that case take dreamer, kidnap and bodyguard and play denial.

[FoolWithTheFez]

In that case take dreamer, kidnap and bodyguard and play denial.

S'ok. I just had a headslapper moment of my own and was coming back to mention Kidnap. Definitely take Kidnap on three of his rats. You don't have to announce it and he will just HAND you 2 vp

[011121]

I still suggest Collodi. You can take him as a henchman to either dreamer or pandora, but I prefer by himself or with Zoraida, personally.

As a side note, when we had the collodi vs Hamelin big debate one of the very experienced Hamelin players claimed to usually have a hand of 15+ cards. I can't figure out how that's possible. Any one know? Don't mean to thread jack but the answer could be important to the OP as well...

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

EDIT: I think I have at least one plan to just game him in return via Dreamer (I do have access to all the Neverborn masters and Collodi. The only models I don't have are Avatars, Waldgeist, Silurids, Gupps and the Doppleganger). Just need to figure out a second scheme for the game against him.

You have all those neverborn and didn't buy the single most useful model in the entire faction? Do you just not like the model or something?

[Alviaran]

Oh, Kidnap was already planned. Hence why I said a second scheme.

And yeah, any of the silly Hamelin tricks are relevant honestly. Even if he doesn't use it, I'd like to know them (and for tournaments, I'd love to avail him of new tricks he can use. I may have a grudge this game but he is a good friend and I love to see him do well when we hit tourneys of any kind).

I just haven't gotten it. It's on the list. Honestly, every time I go to pick up a few things (I also play Warmachine as my main game so I am often adding new things to my collection) I simply forget about the Doppleganger. Being a book 1 minion (and my book 1 being stashed away somewhere because it is nearly useless right now. Need to grab 1.5), I just overlook her.

The only models I have zero plans of getting are the Silurids and Gupps. Don't like the models much. Don't like their rules much. Even the Waldgeists are on my list of things to get (I just wanna' have some fun with aLilith)

I have never played Collodi or Pandora. I've had Neverborn for a while but have only gotten around to playing them this league so my experience with them has been one game of Zoraida, a couple games of Lilith and a handful with the Dreamer. Otherwise, because it is fully painted, I've played a LOT more Kirai. (And just sold all my non-Kirai Rezzer stuff to make sure I can buy all the Neverborn stuff at Gencon)

I will find it funny if he reads this thread though.

[ZiggyQubert]

One other tactic to use, if you can kill one of your own models neer hamelin or a ret catcher, it will spawn a rat when it dies (which hamelin controls) you can then kill that rat to get points, and yes you need to do it before hamelin gets a chance to sac it, so use a companion chane etc, as long as you can keep the rat within 6" of hamelin/rat catcher, you can always kill the rat again when it respawns.

Collodi is great for this kind of thing, activate him, activate all the dolls, move them close to a rat catcher, kill one of the dolls then the dolls kil the crap out of the summoned rat, repeat, then move collodi back if possible

[CannonFodder]

He is going to Basically kill every rat he own for a zillion SS, leaving you only Hamelin left to kill with is virtually impossible since he has SS to burn. Now this lets you do the following because he will not have that many activation after he sacrifices his own crew.

After he activates hamelin, move one of you models into his aura, then kill it, this forces him to drop a rat, he'll try and hide the rat, but you should be able to kill it. Giving you a 2SS worth of kills vs his 0 (assuming you play smart). then you sacrifice your crew for SS and hide with a 2SS lead over him. Try to keep A couple fast easy to kill models to move up and kill in your own crew. Ophelia Gremlins are perfect for this.

[CRC]

Exterminate vermin?

Unless I mis-remember the scheme, you should be able to get at least a T1 tie just by draining souls on your own force in response.

[Alviaran]

The fact that he might leave himself on only Hamelin is part of why I am tempted to bring the Dreamer as well. I can chase him down and with soulstones to burn, I might actually be able to kill him despite his own Soulstones (all comes down to luck on the deck of course, which is sad because while he cannot roll averages on 3d6 to save his life, he flips cards like a bloody champ)

[Setoth]

You could also use Hex with Zoraida to remove Voracious Rats on his rat catchers. It'd require him to sacrifice more rats to get more rat catchers and if they aren't within six inches of Hamelin those three are lost and you can repeat the process. Jack Daw might also be something to look at with the Hangman's Knot? Plus you can Severed Ties with him when you get close enough to Hamelin that all he can use Soulstones for is preventing damage.

Just some quick thoughts.

Edit: In fact, if you go aZoraida and give yourself an Arcane Effigy you can wait for him to kill all his own rats, move Jack Daw into range and activate Severed Ties and keep aZoraida well out of range of Severed Ties using a Doll, then spam Pins and Needles on Hamelin?

Total newb here, again just posting ideas...

Edited July 31, 2012 by Setoth

[bashamer]

so if I recall correctly;

his army will be stolen; only stolen.

Turn 1 they all sacrefice close to Hamilin

Then the rats all sacrefice.

So in effect he gets 2 SS per stolen;

So here are my option.

Tuco; he starts too close for him to ignore him; and getting a blast into that mess really destroys his plans.

But yeah, take bodyguard & the outcast sceme to gain soulstones and he starts w/ 4 points and you can get only 0 points for slaughter. So what you need to do is get more than 0 points and preferably in a way that does not involve getting lucky.

Tuco is your man and the gun can do the job, now you gota get tuco out of reach. Transposition and a Sorrow can do the trick there. Add in an arcane Effigy to get +1 card and the extra AP to cast. This should get you well out of range and allow you to sacrefice your warband the next turn. The Sorrow has link so once it replaces Tuco it bounces back to lillith.

So Tuco gets some points for slaughter, also announce kidnap & Eye for an eye.

Turn 2 sacrefice your warband.

[Joel]

All this thought going into how to have the most pointless game of malifaux ever.

We're doing it wrong guys!

[bashamer]

yep, it would be quicker and less painfull to just pull em out and drop them next to a tapemeasure.

because this one probably is a contest of who is the bigger ....

[Alviaran]

yep, it would be quicker and less painfull to just pull em out and drop them next to a tapemeasure.

because this one probably is a contest of who is the bigger ....

I have to ask if you read anything of what I've said. No, this guy isn't a jerk. He's a good friend of mine. I know he is screwing with me. I just want to screw with him back. We are friends after all.

Not to mention, I'm sure such things can come up in tournament play. Should I just scoop if I see this matchup come up? Or should I try to know how to actually fight against it?

[tadaka]

Best tactic vs a fight like this is picking off a single model, Tuco is ideal for this. Then removing your own models from the game. VP denial can be very effective vs such lists.

[Alviaran]

My problem with Tuco in particular is that then he is a model on the table and I need to play keep away with him. Dreamer bombing something and then burying the crew while only the Dreamer needs to run away (and running away at an impressive speed at that) then.

Man, if only Tuco was a Nightmare too. (No, you do not need to explain to me how broken this would be. Or in general. We already see that problem with the twins having too many characteristics as it is)

Guess I could always sac Tuco myself then, huh? Hm.

What about instead of using Tuco, to use the Madness? I have a pair of the adorable buggers. Have a very respectable range and an amazing walk to then get away. If left on the table in potential danger, can sac them to try to get initiative and commence playing keep away.

[EnternalVoid]

A quick thought, each time he uses Soul Drain he will only be able to sac 3 models at a time. Sure he is fast so he can do 9 in a turn but that mean that there is a possibility that there will be a chance to kill a few of his models for at least a few slaughter points.

You could take the dreamer and take a Lilitu and Lelu. If you can get a first turn Luring you can possible pull one of his models towards you close enough to kill it. Also if he keeps that Stolen and Nix on the table they will have pretty much no Wp due to all the Soul Draining. You can have your Wp reduced to 0. Also his Soul Drain only has a 6" range, so if you can pull a model twice he would have to move to Soul Drain it, thus taking up a whole AP.

If he manages to get a spot where you just will not be able to see him in time you can always wait and dodge Hamelin till you can take a crack at Nix with Lelu or Chompy and then retreat away from him. Overall it really sounds bad they are doing this, I mean calling a Shared Slaughter after coming up with this sort of plan. I mean I get they are friendly but at the same time it sounds like they just want to troll you a bit, even if they are trying to be friendly.

[bashamer]

It doesn't come up during tournament play because to's have the habit of avoiding slaughter. Pre reversal stitched were a far more common issue.

Also in tournaments that is a lot of models to buy for something that will get cuddled.

so it isn't an issue.

Personally I'm never a fan of dictated matchups. Fun to talk about over beer, not so much as something to actually put on the table.

As someone who has been know to proxy dumb lists, it is never as much fun in actuality as it is in thinking about it.

And no, you don't have to scoop, just because it is insanely dumb doesn't mean that the execution is there to back it up.

[Alviaran]

Hence why I come here for ideas to counter it. To be fair, given my record, I kind of deserve it. I think part of it is also that he has found out about this and wants to really give it a go under his "ideal" conditions. Against most of our crew, this is kind of baby seal clubbing. Most are very, VERY new or just don't have a competitive mindset. Doing this would be nothing but a negative play experience to them. He knows me. He knows he has dropped enough hints to make me want to beat it. And when the dust settles, regardless of the outcome, I'm gonna' laugh at him finding such an audacious plan in this game...even more so if he makes it work!

If he hadn't dropped any hints about this, I'd think he is just trolling me after we play. But I do think at least part of it is if I have an inkling as to what this is, I can try to counter it. Gives him experience in a tournament.

Question, if I actually KILL not sacrifice one of my own models, does my opponent get Slaughter points for it? I think no, but I want to be clear on this. (I have discovered a love of the Arcane Effigy with the Dreamer and I just want to see if I can kill it off without having to Drain it to deny him pts once I get the job done)

BTW, this game is actually Wednesday. So I'll make sure to post here what happened in case anyone cares to see how it went.

EDIT: As for the models, I think he already owns a metric ton of rats. Not so sure about Stolen. He might be just going for rats to make it cheaper and more viable. We do also have another Hamelin player so he might raid his collection as well just to put as much as he can on the table. I think both of them own at least 15 or so rats (though this particular player has a mix of Malifaux rats as well as from other manufacturers so he can vary the looks and poses of the models)

Edited August 1, 2012 by Alviaran

[Alviaran]

Well, it turns out that Luring a Stolen through Nix/Rats into melee range, killing it, then letting Teddy kill the resulting Rat and then playing keepaway shuts this down hard. Bodyguard and Kidnap net me points, I now have more than him via Slaughter and thus I win.

It's a mean combo. We are both fairly new to the crews we were playing though as well so he missed that my Stitched was WP6 (thus preventing the Pipes from controlling him). A lot of Harmless duels were forgotten when I was trying to gun down children via Madness. However, the core of what I pulled off was just fine and proves that it works in theory. Him and I both learned a lot from it though. (Also, Hamelin with so many stones is duuuuumb. Stoning every duel, damage preventing every flip, etc. I will run out of Rams cards before he does Stones!)

[EnternalVoid]

So what list did you end up taking and what list did he end up bringing?

Also how many Soulstones did he end up producing?

[Alviaran]

I took:

Dreamer

-3x Daydreams (6)

-Teddy (9)

-Lilitu (7)

-2x Insidious Madness (8)

-Stitched Together (5)

-Arcane Effigy (4)

Leaving me to start the game with 6ss. Part of the reason I took the Teddy in this list was because he is incredibly resilient, making him a good bodyguard if I need to. Hard to Wound discourages Hamelin going after him since he just ends up hurting himself more often than not then and Teddy just heals back up anyway. And his list was not killy otherwise, leaving my Dreamer safe in that case. Otherwise, I actually really liked this list though I'd otherwise probably take a Lelu instead of Teddy and start the Dreamer off with a full rack of 8ss.

He had:

Hamelin the Plagued w/ Avatar (2)

-Obedient Wretch (2)

-Nix (7)

-7x Stolen (21)

And started the game with 8ss. I think his strategy here is deny me the killy objectives on Slaughter and try to get his Avatar out. I pointed out that the Avatar was going to be really hard to do in this game and he knew that. He had intended to do this at 35 or even smaller. I wanted to play a 40ss game for our league so he added another Stolen and started the game at 8ss.

He produced 6 on the first turn (double Drain Soul and then created a Stolen). I moved Dreamer up on top of a giant bridge running the breadth of the table (he had just gotten some more Terraclips so it was a snazzy table. I wish I had grabbed some pictures, though the game wasn't terribly epic) using I Can Fly and two walk actions then dropped out Lilitu and Teddy on the ground below the bridge and the Stitched behind the wall running along the bridge right next to the Dreamer. I used Night Terrors as a last action, which I realize now is more important than I first thought. See, on my next activation I Lured, Lure (with Double Take to Lure into melee) and then killed the Stolen with Lilitu. We realized partway through (basically after I lured him into melee and went to take the attack) about Harmless. This was a common mistake for us this game. We let it stand since we had both forgotten and I failed the WP check to attack. I made it on the next one, connected and killed the Stolen. Teddy then mopped up on the Rat that popped out via his Melee Expert and double walked away (the plan was now, "I killed something. I'm winning Slaughter. Run away like a chump!)

Obviously, the bit we missed that everyone else here probably catches is that when I have Terrifying, I ignore Harmless! Huzzah. I need to remember that. Really. It sort of came up later when my Madnesses were trying to gun down more Stolen to give Hamelin nowhere to respawn.

After I got the kills though and told him I already had Kidnap thanks to him and so all I had to do was run away for fiveish turns after burying/saccing my crew and we agreed I had won. However, it then became a question of, "Can Chompy kill Hamelin?" The answer, sadly, was no. Hameling with 14 stones to my 6 is NOT fun. I managed to poison him (which actually got him down to one wound the next turn though he healed). Chompy does NOT appreciate being beaten in the face with the Black Staff though. That Severe can suck it. Chompy went down, which I think made the game a Phyrric victory for him anyway since I have yet to leave Chompy in a vulnerable position in my few games with him so far.

I have a history of certain models becoming "Must kills" for my friends, such as my Deathjack in Warmachine. This same friend once dedicated EVERYTHING to killing the Deathjack once, the first time my DJ had EVER been killed actually in my years of playing, and left his caster where I could kill him. He just said, "Go ahead. Do it. I did what I came for." So the game was not a total loss to him.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Alviaran