96p Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 So... The errata and FAQ is official for some time now, and I love it ! All but one ruling: ______________________________________________________________________________ Can a model kill or sacrifice itself? Yes. Unless the Talent/Spell causes a fixed number of wounds and those wounds would drop the model to 0 Wounds. ______________________________________________________________________________ Why exactly do I hate this ruling ? Because it ruined the balancing for several models. Leveticus: sacrifices himself for soulstones whenever he's got one AP left, making it really easy to get him killed every turn and win a lot of SS doing that. Kirai: Can now sac herself only to come back thanks to Lost Love Marcus: now can (2) Alpha the enemy master and sacrifice him for a Soulstone And no I'm no whiner, as I'm playing Marcus and Levi myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Although not official clearified I am pretty sure we will see Drain Soul errated to not allow this. So I wouldn't get to use to doing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I agree 100%. I have raised this question numerous times now in different locations. I have asked in the rules forums, mentioned it in the errata pages and even raised the question in the games lounge rapid fire thread. For some reason the Wyrd RM's won't even acknowledge the concern or respond to the questions. It feels like they put their blinders on to this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 To be honest, I'm not so sure the -1 Wp is worth it with Levi to do it more than once or twice. I suppose if you're facing an opponent that has absolutely no Wp-based effects, but that rarely happens in my experience. I think it's a nice ace up the sleeve, so to speak, but certainly not something I would rely on, nor would I use it very often on the first turn in lieu of something like Alyce shooting him instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 It may be because of Con season though It depends on your local meta... there are many crews out there which utilise no abilitys that go against wp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Heh, I guess it's probably just because I see crews like Dreamer, Pandora, Colette, Kirai, etc. in the top many times, and they all have some devastating Wp based stuff. It's certainly dependent on individual meta and particular matchups, but I just don't see it as being that big of a problem, personally. Now, I think the whole Alpha-Drain Souls stuff is kinda crappy, IMO. It's bad enough to control the opponent's Master for a turn, denying them the chance to activate the piece. But to outright sacrifice it all together pretty much hangs the balance of the game on a single Soulstone card flip, which I don't think is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm not saying it OP or it's suddenly going to become a crutch. The main issue is that it directly contradicts what have been ruled numerous times in the past and I would just like confirmation that with the new errata the Levi/ drain souls gimmick now works. If its an over sight that going to be changed or they are working on it they just have to say so and I'll go on my merry way. Right now I'm in limbo and it's annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 To be honest, I'm not so sure the -1 Wp is worth it with Levi to do it more than once or twice. I suppose if you're facing an opponent that has absolutely no Wp-based effects, but that rarely happens in my experience. I think it's a nice ace up the sleeve, so to speak, but certainly not something I would rely on, nor would I use it very often on the first turn in lieu of something like Alyce shooting him instead. In general it's not worth it because Levi's AP are very valuable, and using one to kill himself when he can do so reliably with better planning is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I'm pretty sure, if you did the Alpha/Drain Souls trick that Marcus' Crew would be the one that gets the -1 Wp, at least.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boshea Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 It comes down to who's crew does the model belong to during Alpha. Kirai is really the odd one with this since it overrides the previous ruling about Kirai sacrificing herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I did the Alpha/Drain Souls on McMourning in Turn 2 of the first round in a tourney Saturday..............was probably one of the biggest NPE's I've ever had playing Malifaux.....I'll never do it again. I certainly hope it gets reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoolWithTheFez Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I did the Alpha/Drain Souls on McMourning in Turn 2 of the first round in a tourney Saturday..............was probably one of the biggest NPE's I've ever had playing Malifaux.....I'll never do it again. What made it a NPE? Was it more of a "casual" than "competitive" tourney? Was the other play unduly upset at losing his Master or did you feel you'd abuses a rule loophole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Uhmmm....all of the above. I felt it was loophole abuse and the other player immediately saw it as something OP....especially since it is virtually impossible to resist. And honestly I am always more "casual" than "competitive"....I really just wanted to test it and see if I could. If it was something I felt could be more effectively resisted then I wouldn't have been bothered.............but it was sinfully easy. I was just waiting for 1 decent card which I happened to draw in turn 2. I held a high card from turn 1 just to get Feral off and once that was in I used (0) stare down to prevent cheating and it was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I hear UKrocky used the Alpha trick to kill 3 masters in a mini tournament last weekend. I do wonder what the purpose of the amended ruling was. Seems to have broken a fair few abilities. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Warrior Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 He did, but it was just a mini "1 master no crew" tournament at the end of day one at Toy Soldier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) I think calling it a tournament is over stating it as well. It was just a few of us messing about a bit playing 4 player 0ss scraps for fun. Turns out Colette's better than you think in a 0ss scrap Also watching Stryder build a whole Kirai crew from 0ss was epic. Edited July 24, 2012 by mythicFOX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 You use the (former enemies) master to sacrifice him himself? Drain souls is leaders only, and you have only one leader in a brawl, and thats Marcus who dont have any Ap left after the action. Sure the other Master doesnt loose his leader status somehow when turning into a crewmember of yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) The basic play as ukrocky executes it is: Cast (0) Wild HeartChoose Serpent for (0) Blinding Strike: Discard a Control Card. This model immediately Charges.(0) Blinding Strike to charge thier master.Hit the master and trigger Cb(:tomes) Primal Reaction making them a beast.Cast (2) Alpha on their master.Their master activates and then (1) Drain Souls sacrificing themselves. There are variations, you could make the enemy master a beast with (0) Feral, or have a Raptor do it etc. @cain - I've never seen a rule that states a model loses leader if you gain control of it. That may be the case, if so an RM needs to rule it. Edited July 24, 2012 by mythicFOX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Pffft. As I execute it? I've only used it on 3 masters Use feral on people like Collette who have df triggers etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Use feral on people like Collette who have df triggers etc... Followed by (0) Stare Down which forces a to resist the Alpha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 So my question is for the Marcus players, how often does it work? Seems to me that its a "all in" sorta move. Either get there and kill the model or you leave Marcus sitting vulnerable in melee range of an enemy master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 So my question is for the Marcus players, how often does it work? Seems to me that its a "all in" sorta move. Either get there and kill the model or you leave Marcus sitting vulnerable in melee range of an enemy master. Well, Feral is a (0) and if you fail to get that, you could always just move away. If you get it, then after (0) Stare Down the odds are hugely in your favor of Alpha working. You need to be in position so it isn't going to be automatic, but it does seem pretty easy. There are plenty of ways to set it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I've managed to Alpha masters on a few occasions, but it's not a terribly reliable option. The Raptor helped it along a lot - assuming you can get the opposing master turned into a beast first, it frees Marcus up to Stare Down, and they're in trouble. But generally, it's not really any harder than accomplishing any other master v. master action - but the payoff (at least until/unless they fix the self-sacrifice thing again) is huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I've never alpha'd before we started mucking about with the 0ss scraps at toy soldier (Yep, zero) and did it for a bit of fun. As for properly in game, well, I'd do it if my back was against the wall and it was the best option. 80% of the time I don't care if Marcus dies anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 In some ways, a lot of Masters can spend all their AP in a turn and kill an opposing Master (Viks, Lillith, LadyJ, etc.) so from that perspective, it doesn't seem too bad. The fact that the opposing Master only gets to truly defend on one flip (either Feral or the Combat) is the real sticking point. Once Stare Down is active, you're pretty much hosed. So at least with the combat orientated, multiple AP models, you have at least 2-3 chances to cheat and burn SS to win a duel and survive, as opposed to only 1 chance with Marcus. That said.....maybe this is the boost Marcus has needed all along to be playable again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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