Pre-Measure

[Soundwave]

I'd prefer pre measure, but I'm just fine with it as it is.

[Truthsayer]

Just a quick one, but Malifaux does currently allow you to pre-measure your melee range at any time, so this can be used to get a good gauge of distances when using people with 3" range (or 4" if you boost aSeamus).

[Gruesome]

Just a quick one, but Malifaux does currently allow you to pre-measure your melee range at any time, so this can be used to get a good gauge of distances when using people with 3" range (or 4" if you boost aSeamus).

I take that pretty literally with my Dead Rider's Mounted Combat... I usually want to pause the charge as close to his maximum melee range of 3 inches whenever I am looking to drag someone away.

[dsmiles]

Pre-measuring is definitely a plus. I have a good eye for distances, being a long-time wargamer. My children, who are just now getting into the hobby, however, do not. The majority of their turns are spent agonizing over whether they're 1/8 of an inch off or not. When I play with them, be it WarmaHordes or Malifaux, I let them measure anything they want, at any time. It greatly speeds up their turns and makes the entire game go faster.

[Truthsayer]

I take that pretty literally with my Dead Rider's Mounted Combat... I usually want to pause the charge as close to his maximum melee range of 3 inches whenever I am looking to drag someone away.

This is definitely a good use of pre-measuring, and is one of the reasons Im glad the melee range measurement is allowed. Allows you to use your ability to its maximum. But I think this shows why perhaps an across the board allowance of pre-measuring would be good, as you could determine if you want to commit to the action, or do something else. Would save a lot of time during gaming.

[Pierowmaniac]

Having been a primary WFB player, and seeing the transition in that game, trying out kings of war rules, and seeing the 40k transition, I really like allowing premeasuring. All guess ranges does is makes it harder for new players to compete with experienced players in something that has nothing to do with the tactics of the game, and makes the game more difficult for occasional players with vision problems (such as Buhallin who mentioned it earlier in this thread). I learned Warhammer playing with a carpenter, so that was a pretty big handicap as a new player, and it was frustrating. Over time I learned my distances and can easily mark 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 inches with very good accuracy. I still don't like to see a player lose a game on a failed distance estimation.

Funny....every dwarf or empire player in previous editions already did that +/-0.1".

A big thing premeasuring eliminates is arguments over distances. Rather than worry about a distance after a charge is declared, most often a player will just say "this is just over 9 inches so you can't charge, right?" and the other player agrees before it's an issue (or disagrees and you adjust the model back a fraction of an inch).

+1

Also coming from a WHFB background and seeing how that affected the game, I can also say that pre-measuring certainly does help speed up the game and was (overtime after the initial shock to hardcore players) generally considered a positive change to the game system.

I also played quite a number of games against a fairly well known WHFB top tier tournament player, who was also a carpenter, and his ability to accurately guess the range with his Rocklobbers, Cannons etc was outstanding. In a way that change took away one of his advantages, however he is still pretty much still wining his fair share of tournaments and has no complaints about pre-measuring.

I know the OP said to discuss in general terms (not specifically for Malifaux) and I'd certainly say I'm all for games that include pre-measuring and as an aside I would think Malifaux is a game that similar to WHFB could easily survive a transistion to pre-measuring. Infact considering the issue some Malifaux tournaments may have with Terraclips terrain, I would suggest Malifaux is actually a game that (and Wyrd as a company) could benifit in some ways by changing to pre-measuring.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Pierowmaniac
edited for grammar ;)

[Gruesome]

I know the OP said to discuss in general terms (not specifically for Malifaux) and I'd certainly say I'm all for games that include pre-measuring and as an aside I would think Malifaux is a game that similar to WHFB could easily survive a transistion to pre-measuring.

No worries about anything from the OP, I am mostly interested in all the perspectives and would rather not have boundaries. Discuss anything you think is relevant to the effects of pre-measure.

I've been pretty surprised by the seeming majority of replies that seemed to agree with the Eternal Warriors podcast that pre-measure generally speeds things up.

I am also embarrassed that I did not think about eyesight issues being a problem in the past.

I will say that now that I do demos more often that when I am talking to someone with NO miniatures experience that having to guess whether they are in range or not has been a definite turn-off. They have no background that prepares them for that as being "typical". For these sorts of people, I am trying to excite them about the game and any little thing that seems at all intimidating is an obstacle that has to be surmounted.

I know that raising concerns about new people can often raise the hackles of hard-core gamers as its often viewed as "dumbing down" the game. Not sure whether I feel this sort of step falls into that category, but could understand others feeling that it does.

[Lungboy]

I'm thoroughly against pre-measuring, and feel it has been a really bad thing to introduce to WFB and 40K. I'd hate it in Malifaux too. I'm not sure if this is purely down to having learnt to play games "properly" or just fear of change. I'm also not convinced it speeds games up, as i could definitely see people measuring the threat range of every opponent's model and making sure they are exactly 1mm outside before they use every single AP.

[dgraz]

Its been many a version since I've played anything games workshop, but from what I recall hearing they compensated for premeasuring in part by adding randomized charge distances. Just some food for thought. The change to premeasuring came along with other changes to seemingly compensate for the new gameplay dynamic.

I could deal with pre-measure, but the randomized charge ranges was what put the final nail in my GW coffin........I haven't played it for years but when that came out I sold all of my armies.

[Truthsayer]

I'm thoroughly against pre-measuring, and feel it has been a really bad thing to introduce to WFB and 40K. I'd hate it in Malifaux too. I'm not sure if this is purely down to having learnt to play games "properly" or just fear of change. I'm also not convinced it speeds games up, as i could definitely see people measuring the threat range of every opponent's model and making sure they are exactly 1mm outside before they use every single AP.

Whilst I understand what you mean by being taught games the 'proper' way, or what I would really define as 'old school', I think games have progressed from that. It is also a massive detriment and unfair disadvantage to people that have trouble judging distances due to problems.

I would be interested to test your theory of people spending a lot of time measuring threat ranges etc. slowing down the game. I personally know a few occasions where myself or my opponents have needed to ensure our models were in just the right place, often outside of range of opposing models. This leads to lots of guessing, and time staring at the board trying to use your minds eye to judge the distance. Grabbing a tape measure and making all of the checks would take a manner of seconds, speeding up the game, and stop arguments as you can declare your placing your model outside of X from the opposing model. I do understand the reluctance to change though, but I feel this game in particular would benefit.

[Zombie Kitt]

Premeasuring is the handicap in my house.

I've played various games for years, and can eyeball 6, 8, 10, 12 and 24 inches pretty consistently. My wife plays and she can't do this, so we tend to say she can premeasure just to balance things up.

I like the tension of making tough calls about if things are in range or not, and I like the narrow escapes when someone is an inch short of burning me to death, so by preference I'd like to not see premeasuring as a rule.

My other half doesn't spend any time at all measuring threat ranges. If a charge or a spell she is considering casting looks a bit questionable range wise, it gets a quick measure before the ap is spent. If someone is measuring everything all the time, and getting all excited about being in the right position by a millimetre, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they might not be the funnest opponent in the world regardless of premeasuring or not.

[DeleteAccount]

I'm all for adding premeasuring. Doesn't mean I actually have a problem with not being allowed, but I am in the "premeasuring will speed things up" camp and more importantly, will cut a lot on the measuring arguments. Hell, the most I've ever agonized with distances is in warmachine where I try to triangulate (sometimes very poorly) the threat range of something that isn't my caster using their Ctrl Area.

[Borzag]

I'm thoroughly against pre-measuring, and feel it has been a really bad thing to introduce to WFB and 40K. I'd hate it in Malifaux too. I'm not sure if this is purely down to having learnt to play games "properly" or just fear of change. I'm also not convinced it speeds games up, as i could definitely see people measuring the threat range of every opponent's model and making sure they are exactly 1mm outside before they use every single AP.

As someone who also learnt to play "properly" (the use of air quotes and sarcasm voice very much implied) I am very firmy in FAVOUR of pre-measurement. In any other game I could understand why it could be a problem, but this is one of the few games that I know of that you don't need to engage the other guy to actually play. If you want to make sure that I can't touch your minis by 1mm, I'll happily spend my AP to go and acheive objectives instead with a smile on my face, and a thank you for letting me move so freely.

Sometimes though you WANT to do the engaging (say, tying up opponents so they can't reach said objectives). It is very much a case of who can force who into reacting. In that respect, pre-measurement can be just as useful.

Anyway, in short, I'm for it.

Cheers!

Borzag (in "proper" play, I move all my minis, then shoot, then cast spells, then your go... I like improper play )

[Marcalla]

Having played GW games and others with and without pre measuring here are my thoughts.

I agree that as long as everybody is playing by the same rules then its all good.

Pre-measuring speeds things up considerably as you aren't trying to estimate you simply measure and get an immediate yes/no. Everybody is allowed to measure so there's no tactical advantage to knowing distances.

Players shift their tactics when pre-measureing and not. Basically the 7.5" thing that was mentioned above you tell them you are staying out of x inches and move. Everybody is on the same level.

As to speed of measuring, since it can be done anytime you can do it when you are waiting for your opponent to move a model etc thus speeding things up considerably.

No pre-measuring. basically people are forced to guestimate and if they are out then they are out. it does take longer

Tactically its another dimension to have to consider on both sides. A good ranger can move a model/unit just out of range and yet close enough to make their opponent have to "take a chance" This alone can add a lot of time to a persons turn.

This favors people with better ranging skills but doesn't give them a superior advantage.

The other thing mentioned is terrain and other "ranging" things that folks do can give an advantage over people unfamiliar with said terrain.

the biggest culprit in malifaux to this is the terra clips with their little range boxes (err I mean movement squares) A similar thing happened back in the day when using non hexed Geo hex as they were 12" hex pieces it was easy to "guess" ranges with them.

As for Malifaux itself, I'd like to see pre-measuring as it already includes active range effects (aura's) which often need to be measured mid movement and such which slows the game down and can already sublimate the effect of no measuring. And since you can always check melee range that is another helper that can be exploited. I'd rather see a full pre-measure as opposed to a half and half which we have now. I think it would speed alot of things up in play.

Where it can be a bit hinky is in the multiple interaction department. IE switching and then moving ect.

I would enjoy the game both way's, but I don't think pre-measuring ruins Malifaux or any other table game for that matter. I do think pre-measuring would speed up alot of things.

[CRC]

In my opinion, the only reason not to allow pre-measuring is because you want to play the mini-game of guess range.

WHFB had a major component of guess-range artillery and guess-range charges. It was a core component of the game, and a major part of player skill.

Part of the reason grognards of WHFB got upset when it was taken out was because it was a skill they had developed and a part of the game they enjoyed. They liked that mini-game.

Complex games like Malifaux or WHFB are composed of many sub-games: list-building, painting, converting, deploying, planning, arguing-about-the-rules, ...

Really, what we are talking about here is: Does estimating distances make this game more fun.

I don't think so. I don't think that missing a charge by 1/2" or wasting a bullet by 1/2" is fun, either for me or my opponent.

But that's just my opinion, and a statement about the sort of game I want to play.

[rsteelrose]

I really think that the answer to whether or not pre-measuring should be allowed or not can be solved in a very simple way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRlGbr3NuYc&feature=player_detailpage

[dgraz]

Even though I believe the pertinent part of the reference was in the first couple of minutes and I've probably seen it.....I don't know.....a hundred times, I still watched all ten minutes.

Does my heart good to watch the whole reason I started with and still play the Ortegas.

I'm sure the guy that Lee shot in the beginning really wished he had a tape measure.....he was definitely "In My Sights".

Also some nice Francisco "Fannin'" in the bar.

[CannibalBob]

I have played many mini games over the last 20 years, and all told I prefer when games allow full pre-measuring. After many years I don't find that disallowing pre-measuring adds anything great to a game.

I have found that overall the games I have played where you can pre-measure end up being much more interesting as both players are much more free to concentrate on their strategy and gameplay. Both players have full access to what it is that they can do each turn, and there is no issue of range guessing which I find to generally speed up the game.

[TreeNinja]

I have to say I am 100% against pre-measuring being allowed, as a full on rule. I think that it will remove to much from the game to be worth adding as a main stream rule. I honestly don't believe that it will speed up play enough to make it worth the trade. Least not when a player gets used to playing this way. I feel the players who hate pre-measuring are also the same ones who have to know the potential outcome from any decision they make before they choose which move to make, so they are going to take a long time before they move anyway but now they get to add the extra step of actually measuring everything as well.

I don’t mind allowing it if both players agree beforehand. I think it should be allowed for teaching/learning games, and for those players that actually have vision issues that makes so they can’t actually judge distances. I see that as a viable reason for pre-measuring but outside of that I think we should leave it out.

I am not really that accurate, but I am getting better at it as I play, so I’m not advocating non-pre-measuring because I would lose an edge. I think that by allowing pre-measuring past where it already is will destroy the flow of the game, take out some of the wow factor, and remove the use of some tactical/strategic play.

When I say “flow of the game” I should point out that this is also ties into part of the “lose some of the tactical/strategic play”. One of the tactics I think will be lost is one I refer to as the shinny penny on a string tactic. This tactic in its broader since is really good against players that like to kill every model their opponent has on the table. So you use a model or two to drive your opponent to a position on the board either to get them there or drive them away from another so you can complete your objectives. With pre-measuring you are constantly pulling yourself out of the flow of the game to reconsider your options. Good players teach themselves how to avoid this. (The other name I like for this one is: “SQUIRREL!!!”).

Now that is the broadest scope of that tactic, as with any tactic there are finer points but I think you can see where I’m going with it. By breaking up the flow of the game you are removing tactics that are not tangible skill that can truly be measured. Things that involve being distracted by the right hand while the left hand is lifting your wallet. This can be incredibly hard to pull off when your opponent is able to see all the pieces on the board. But it can be done. But when you add pre-measuring you take most of that ability away.

Continuing along those line I think is where you start losing the wow factor I’m talking about. It’s the moments of surprise in what a model can do along with the player that make this game so amazing and I think that anything that diminishes those moments is truly something to decrease not bring in more of. I love the fact that we use cards instead of dice. Because it gives us some control over the game allowing for more tactical/strategical play. That being said I don’t think allowing real time knowledge of distances is what we should be striving for. If you want to create that kind of knowledge allow for pre-measuring of the board before the game starts. That would fit more accurately in the idea that we are in the general/commander position. In the war room your info is supplied to you.

The only other thing I would point out is that in realistic combat you have to learn to read your surroundings by quickly eyeballing it. By not allowing any more pre-measuring then we already do we keep in those rules that translate that realistic form of combat.

My hopes are that if pre-measuring is brought in make it a piece of pre-game agreement so that those of us who don’t want to play that way are not force to.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'm not sure how someone could be forced to use pre-measuring. Forced to allow it, maybe, but if you like playing "Guess the Range", no rule allowing you to pre-measure is going to change that.

[Boscotopia]

The only other thing I would point out is that in realistic combat you have to learn to read your surroundings by quickly eyeballing it. By not allowing any more pre-measuring then we already do we keep in those rules that translate that realistic form of combat.

.

That is not true at all. The only time you eyeball it in combat is when you have no other choice. Rangefinding devices and techniques are always used when available and not using them could cost you your life. Also, rangefinders have been around since

the 1700's so it would fit the fluff, too.

Maybe have it where you can hire a 1 SS merc (so all factions can take him or her) who is a mathematician that allows you to pre-measure that way those who do not pre-measure get a SS advantage out of it.

Also, it would be cool to have a mathematician as a minion.

[Loxley]

I love the idea of introducing a mini who would effect the game in such a huge way like Pre measuring, and a merc would probably be the best for faction reasons, but what about crews with limited model selection like Dreamer who can't hire mercs in normal games?

[TreeNinja]

I'm not sure how someone could be forced to use pre-measuring. Forced to allow it, maybe, but if you like playing "Guess the Range", no rule allowing you to pre-measure is going to change that.

You are correct I did mean "to be forced to allow it". I belive this should be introduced as a handycap kind of optional rule not the main rule.

[Boscotopia]

I love the idea of introducing a mini who would effect the game in such a huge way like Pre measuring, and a merc would probably be the best for faction reasons, but what about crews with limited model selection like Dreamer who can't hire mercs in normal games?

Have a trait like:

Likes the Sound of His Own Voice: this minion can be hired by any Master and if a Henchman is acting as a Master, they, too, may take that minion.

Comes Cheap will keep it the same price for everyone.

[Jonas Albrecht]

You are correct I did mean "to be forced to allow it". I belive this should be introduced as a handycap kind of optional rule not the main rule.

I figured, just like I figure people who say "I like guessing range" actually mean "I enjoy the tactical advantage over my opponents when they can't pre-measure".