Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 For me, at least. With the release of the Warden, I'm looking at retiring the Peacekeeper for most games. I like the visual imagery that comes with Hoffster riding around on a rejected Cryxian Warjack, but I've come to the conclusion that it's too many points for a model I keep losing to various counters. Instead, I'm going to start using two Wardens instead. It's totally a Stone more to hire two, but based on a few test runs, I think they solve the One Big Target problem nicely. I will, however, miss the Peacekeeper Payload maneuver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osoi Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I was thinking similar things Jonas having just started playing around with Hoffman, I was going to try and use the warden as his ride. My biggest problem is the offensive output that the Peacekeeper has is enormous, so maybe he might tag with Ryle a bit more and I'll include a Witchling in the crew so he will push from him and give a couple of other benefits too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 My biggest issue in this is, most Hoffman "construct" list lack a heavy hitter. Due to low defense and low cb your usually at a disadvantage when it comes to the flips. The two exceptions being Pale Rider, and Peacekeeper. These two have enough offensive ability to really help the list when it comes to dealing out damage. And while I do like the Wardens (through a couple of playtest) I don't feel the punch is still there. Your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 My biggest issue in this is, most Hoffman "construct" list lack a heavy hitter. Due to low defense and low cb your usually at a disadvantage when it comes to the flips. The two exceptions being Pale Rider, and Peacekeeper. These two have enough offensive ability to really help the list when it comes to dealing out damage. And while I do like the Wardens (through a couple of playtest) I don't feel the punch is still there. Your thoughts? The Wardens for me make it up by being really mobile and getting to play Freeze Tag with really frustrating models. For damage, I run Santiago autoinclude in my Hoffman lists these days. The issue with the Peacekeeper is that with a lot of foes, it's sturdiness is deceptive. All that armor means nothing when Colette DuBois blinks it out of existence, and against Kirai, you've got so many armor ignoring models that you're paying extra for it for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just curious, what is the point of using Hoffman in these list? Would not a different master be more preferable? Such as in a 2 warden Santiago list, why not use Perdita? I feel you are losing out a lot of benefit doing so. Though most of my arguments on this are more "theory" As I tend to usually use all to almost all constructs with Hoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Just curious, what is the point of using Hoffman in these list? Would not a different master be more preferable? Such as in a 2 warden Santiago list, why not use Perdita? I feel you are losing out a lot of benefit doing so. Though most of my arguments on this are more "theory" As I tend to usually use all to almost all constructs with Hoff. Because it's still mostly a construct list, and C. Hoffman works very well with them. The notion that all your dudes gotta be constructs is a trap that a lot of players fall into when using Hoff as a master, but when I'm fielding a crew that contains Guardians, Wardens, Watchers, Mobile Toolkits, he turns that good list into a list with some amazing dynamics. Again, the presence of Santiago does not change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm really looking forward to seeing how they work in aHoffman lists, as he'll be the big target. Do you think they'll shine there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 aHoffman is outside my realm of expertise. I'm not too big on Avatars, but I'm willing to bet someone's tried fielding him with the Wardens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 You make some good points for not auto-including the Peacekeeper in all lists. I think against Colette, anyone bringing a lynchpin model has either never played Colette before or has suffered a debilitating head wound. Against Kirai, Hoffman struggles no matter what he takes, although Open Circuit is devastating. That said, I enjoy having crews with lynchpin models (Peacekeeper, Duet, Killjoy etc etc), so the Peacekeeper is going to stay my number one Hoffman choice for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Open Circuit is pretty much my go to Ghostbuster. Works really well with a Mobile Toolkit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Last tournament I played in I used a 35 SS Hoffman list with both a Peace Keeper and a Mechanical Rider (so much better for Hoffman than the Pale Rider in my experience) plus a Guardian and 2 Watchers. First time not using at least 1 Witchling in a really long time. Anyway, I managed to keep the Peace Keeper alive in all but 1 game (Colette's bloody Mannequin Replacement), but then the Rider just picked Hoffman up and continued the butchery at the other end of the board. I'm still a big fan of the heavy hitters with Hoffman, because a reactivating Warden can't ever come close to what a Peace Keeper can dish out. Also, Armour +1 versus Armour +2 is an enormous difference. Armour-ignoring attacks are still fairly rare and if you make them priority targets your Hoffball can weather pretty much any storm. Just make sure you bring a backup plan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Unfortunately, armor ignoring attacks are becoming quite common. Of course, the other advantage to smaller models is not getting out-activated by your opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Dead models don't activate so I find the outactivation problem is of a temporary nature. As for ignoring armour: still not convinced. I find I encounter few crews that have more than 1 or 2 models capable of burning through armour, and most of them will quickly go down to a focused assault from a highly mobile model or have a damage output that is easily absorbed by your protect chain. And if you're not playing Protect with Hoffman you're not doing it right, if you ask me. If your meta is 3 Colettes and an Ophelia rounded out with some Levi and the odd McMourning then I can understand where you're coming from, but if you play a lot of different opponents I think it's less of an issue. And it's not because your armour is ignored that Hoffman is suddenly worthless or vulnerable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Dead models don't activate so I find the outactivation problem is of a temporary nature. As for ignoring armour: still not convinced. I find I encounter few crews that have more than 1 or 2 models capable of burning through armour, and most of them will quickly go down to a focused assault from a highly mobile model or have a damage output that is easily absorbed by your protect chain. And if you're not playing Protect with Hoffman you're not doing it right, if you ask me. If your meta is 3 Colettes and an Ophelia rounded out with some Levi and the odd McMourning then I can understand where you're coming from, but if you play a lot of different opponents I think it's less of an issue. Yes, the ability to pool your wounds makes Protect so good I can practically hear the errata clock ticking. My experience has been different. At this point, the game is filled with not only armor ignoring models, but also construct screws and things that don't play the damage game that I really feel the need to evaluate large point sinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I still think the Peacekeeper has its place. Armor defeating abilities are out there but not everyone has them, He is still a big armored, high wound, fast moving model that can dish out damage. Wardens will replace it in a lot of lists but not all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 The Wardens for me make it up by being really mobile and getting to play Freeze Tag with really frustrating models. For damage, I run Santiago autoinclude in my Hoffman lists these days. The issue with the Peacekeeper is that with a lot of foes, it's sturdiness is deceptive. All that armor means nothing when Colette DuBois blinks it out of existence, and against Kirai, you've got so many armor ignoring models that you're paying extra for it for nothing. And don't forget Ronin's armor ignoring sword. I hate those things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I actually like to take a heavy hitter against Colette - as it can force her hand. She more or less HAS to deal with a big fast monster with high Cb - as it can threaten the Coryphee. And if she doesn't get that third :tomes and then proceeds to lose initiative - you have a decent chance of winning the game then and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's all or nothing, certainly. You can get a Peacekeeper into melee with the Duet with its 15" move, but can Hoffman stop Colette bouncing it out of there before he can Machine Puppet it to death? Usually Colette has the same or (with Doves) more models than Hoffman, which means the Peacekeeper is left wailing on a Mannequin, if it hasn't turned into one. I play Colette, and the last time someone took the Peacekeeper against me, Cassandra it and the Duet Paralysed it and then the Showgirls did a little dance around it and tied a ribbon on the remains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's all or nothing, certainly. You can get a Peacekeeper into melee with the Duet with its 15" move, but can Hoffman stop Colette bouncing it out of there before he can Machine Puppet it to death? Usually Colette has the same or (with Doves) more models than Hoffman, which means the Peacekeeper is left wailing on a Mannequin, if it hasn't turned into one. I play Colette, and the last time someone took the Peacekeeper against me, Cassandra it and the Duet Paralysed it and then the Showgirls did a little dance around it and tied a ribbon on the remains And this, my friends, is why Colette is becoming my most hated opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I actually like to take a heavy hitter against Colette - as it can force her hand. She more or less HAS to deal with a big fast monster with high Cb - as it can threaten the Coryphee. And if she doesn't get that third :tomes and then proceeds to lose initiative - you have a decent chance of winning the game then and there. The smart Colette player pockets a low tome for Blinding Flash. ---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ---------- Wardens will replace it in a lot of lists but not all. Yes but "The Warden and how it will sometimes be included in pairs at the exclusion of larger point models" wouldn't fit on the title bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Now why in the world should people hate colette? Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Now why in the world should people hate colette? Lol. Heh. I know. Its probably just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Heh. I know. Its probably just me. Nah I was just baiting you cause I wrote a colette tactica that basically revealed to the masses how you can be aggresive with her and still successful. In all honesty though if I were to play a good guild player that knew what to take against her I could really see it be a pretty 50/50 matchup in my eyes due to us having the right amount of certain tools to use against her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Nah I was just baiting you cause I wrote a colette tactica that basically revealed to the masses how you can be aggresive with her and still successful. In all honesty though if I were to play a good guild player that knew what to take against her I could really see it be a pretty 50/50 matchup in my eyes due to us having the right amount of certain tools to use against her. "A-HA! So you ADMIT it! Your Honor, I rest my case...!" At the risk of thread jacking... I don't hate her because she's 'broken'. I don't think she is. I hate her because I haven't fully figured her out yet. And now I'll check out your tactica and maybe it'll help. I can't think of many things more demoralizing than having a fully healthy model just removed from the game on one cast. I know, I know, the spell is hard to get off and you have to be lucky on the flip. But it seems my opponents have been pretty lucky with me, bub. In my last game against her I lost both Lucius and a Guardian from Mannequin Replacement. Thus my seething hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yeah don't really want to thread jack but if you want to start a guild vs colette thread I would impart some advice being that I play both. I think the thread is on page 5-8 of arcanists atm . And the mannequin replacement is far easier than most our willing to admit if the colette playier doesn''t have a problem remembering how many books are in their hand and have been flipped up on the current turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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