A more risque Lady J Alt?

[GlennM]

While not having blatant nudity, even some of the Wyrds are pretty sexualized as well. Sword Vik is running around in ass-less chaps and a thong . . . I personally could care less. Taelor has thong straps hanging out, these things are just as suggestive IMHO. But the men are just as sexualized, big muscly men are what we are taught is attractive, therefore our male figures fit that description.

I could care less how sexualized my figures are, I used to be a bit more prudish, then I realized it doesn't matter. I just bought a bunch of Amazons from Shadowsea, they are all topless, their breasts are a reasonable size, but they are still topless. I'm not going to pull them out in front of my kids, but still.

Also, Tentacle Bento is Soda Pop Miniatures card game, everyone I know thinks it's a riot, mind you most of my friends are young women who have watched tentacle porn at some point. They think it is one of the silliest card games ever, therefore I bought a copy to play with them. We also play Super Dungeon Explore a lot. They are both lighthearted jabs at the Anime Genre in different ways.

[Math Mathonwy]

It's an utterly horrid sculpts of a bad concept (btw, sculpted by the guy who sculpts most of the Wyrd stuff these days). If the sole point of the model is the boobs one would think they should at least be sculpted somewhat nicely. And the hair is (as all the sculptor's long hair) subpar at best. Utter dreck quality-wise and the idea is bad as well.

[ThePandaDirector]

The model is terrible, but the sculptor, James Van Schaik, has produced great work. He's done Bete Noire, Scales of Justice, Ronin, Nurses, Desolation Engine and Kirai's crew box. Also, and I knew I knew him from somewhere, he sculpted all the metal Puppet War miniatures (some are misses, many are hits). I think in the grand scheme of things this is a brilliant sculptor turning a bad idea into a bad sculpt.

I think in this case the artist/company has said 'we want a big breasted barbarian babe' and he has had to do his best to deliver the, possibly half-hearted, result of that demand. Either that or it's just one of the misses that every sculptor has, but shouldn't be used to pass final judgement on either the artists or the company. That ties quite nicely into how I think we should celebrate our artists more because whether they hit the mark or not, it is the company that make the final decision. The artists are just earning their bread and if it weren't for the fact their results weren't then being placed on the shelf with a price tag we'd worship them, but alas they often get criticism best saved for the actual businesses.

[Mako]

Got to agree with Panda, having done some commission sculpting myself, if you know the concept is naff its so hard to make it shine. But you don't get paid to get inventive, you get paid to copy the art usually, so you can't stop it looking bad. And that's even harder when it's not your usual style. Which is why I don't try and make a living from it, those grind sculpts are no fun to do.

Mind you, when you get given a vague brief and told to go nuts, that's great fun

I don't always like JvS's stuff, but I would say this one's a situation where there was no way to recover the piece from the concept. Just the basic concept of badly proportioned underdressed excuse for cheap nudity torpedoed this one before it got near him I suspect!

[morella]

Even though I covered up Taelor's under-boob due to personal preference (I don't think a hardened criminal would go into battle with her boobs flopping around), I have no problem with nude models.

I thanked you for this - I don't have a problem with the semi-nudity on Taelor, but I'll be doing the same thing for the same reason with this model.

I'm going to do a separate post, it's too early for me to figure out how to quote multiple people.

[Sliver Chocobo]

If she was wearing cloths it would be a really good

However she not, and it's not

[ThePandaDirector]

Without putting you on the spot Mako, I think you're a perfect example of an artist who the community greatly respects, but the moment Wyrd or anyone else releases your product and sticks a price tag on it you're suddenly being judged by some other kind of standard or frame of reference. While I don't see anyone attacking the sculptor, I have seen past passive aggression against Wyrd artists who no longer have their names proudly displayed next to their work, good or bad. Let't just take unjustified responsability off the shoulders of these artists and just celebrate the more creative aspect of this hobby (a good distraction from the usual content of forums such as this). I'm just sick of having to use Google to find these people when they have more reason to be revered than any tournament winner (imo).

[morella]

That is one ugly model and does nothing for appeasing the alienation of potential female gamers and hobbyists.

I try and make it a point to speak for no one but myself, but the level of nudity of a mini has never bothered me and I have known a lot of other ladies with pin-up/comic book tattoos so I assume I'm not the only one. But it's nice that you offer that consideration - I just feel there are lots of other, more significant obstacles ladies face in entering the hobby, but that may be quite skewed by my perceptions.

That said, this model is just not appealing. I have noticed (in general, there are lots of exceptions) the "more nude" a model is (either gender), the less proportional it seems to be. I'm not sure if this because of concept, difficulty of execution, or lack of familiarity with the human subject (and no, I don't mean anything by that, I'm thinking more of the traditional image of an art class painting nudes). I have seen loads of partially nude models that I really like, so it can be done well.

[Mako]

@Panda: you're absolutely right, once it gets a price tag it becomes totally different. There's often a lot of vitriol thrown at something because people don't like the sculpt, or the paintjob, or the photo even. The whole 'because I CAN buy it, I can moan that it isn't what I WANT to buy.'

In this case, I just find the model trashy. This kind of thing can be done with style, but in this case it just seems like a lazy choice rather than trying to get something right. They've gone for the easiest, most blatant sexualisation they could. And as someone said earlier, there's a lot of male miniatures that are no different. It's just a bit rarer to see some guy with their bits hanging out, huge muscles are more the way that goes!

I'm not saying people shouldn't say if they don't like something, or if they do, and why they feel like that. I've said that kind of thing myself at times on here. But it's all subjective, and a little appreciation for the effort and skills involved goes a long way. Just because I, or someone else, doesn't like something, doesn't make it wrong. I'm not a huge fan of Werner Klocke, but I can hardly say he has no talent!

I think seeing people's names attached to their work is a bit of a double edged sword, if only because it does suck to watch people abuse you just because they don't like one piece of your work. But I would like to see it more, so I can see whose styles I like and find more things they've done.

[ThePandaDirector]

@Mako: It is very much a double sword, I agree, but like Freyr's Magical Sword it fights by itself "if wise be he who wields it" =] So yeah, people are intitled to their opinion (as long as I agree with it of course), but just make sure you not only use the right language, but speak to the right person.

I try and make it a point to speak for no one but myself, but the level of nudity of a mini has never bothered me and I have known a lot of other ladies with pin-up/comic book tattoos so I assume I'm not the only one. But it's nice that you offer that consideration - I just feel there are lots of other, more significant obstacles ladies face in entering the hobby, but that may be quite skewed by my perceptions.

While I know quite a variety of different people of both sex (feminists, christians, goths, posh, homosexuals, bisexuals, international students, comic geeks, gaming geeks, countryside people, city people, motor heads, actors, musicians, festival goers, photographers; to place them in meaningless classifications), I cannot attest to having even a basic understanding of either men or women (just pandas).

I remember a women posting on Kingdom Death's Facebook page saying:

"How can you guys live with yourselves making these minis? These are despicable. I hope you know you've ostracized any female who would ever think about playing your game. I guess I'll be sticking to my Dark Eldar and Trolls."

Ironic I know

That said I know just as many men as women who would be offended by that model (probably more men actually). It's not just a matter of quality or taste, but perceived taste. You look at that model and you "know" it was designed with teenage boys in mind. You don't know, but if you think you do and imagine the drooling faces of those neck-bearded adolescents filling up their bins with used tissues... you're opinion of the hobby takes a bit of a beating The fact comic books manage to get away with it, along with manga, anime - Hell Hollywood makes half its earning off the bare butt cheeks of its lead female "stars" - goes to show that this isn't taboo. However, there are two important considerations. 1) The last thing this industry needs is more models reinforcing one of its established stereotypes and 2) as much as sex sells, there's a growing number of people arguing that it is no excuse to misrepresent and objectify men and women. So while I like the "despicable" models produced by Kingdom Death and find Wyrd's female characters engaging despite some physical similarities, I think we need more of-

and less of-

[morella]

You look at that model and you "know" it was designed with teenage boys in mind. You don't know, but if you think you do and imagine the drooling faces of those neck-bearded adolescents filling up their bins with used tissues... you're opinion of the hobby takes a bit of a beating

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww! So did not need that image this early in the day

I didn't mean to pick on you, I thought it was nice of you to note, because I think you're great. Just wanted to add that, for me at least, there are larger issues to consider if the goal is to increase the number of women gamers, this would not even make my top ten.

And the Dark Eldar lady? Yeah....... ironic

Also, have you seen Reaper's Legion of Justice and Caeke?

Adding - Also, I skipped this thread for a few days because I interpreted the title as someone was looking for a more risque Lady J. Like the woman doesn't have a hard enough time fighting undead in a corset and skin-tight pants.

Edited July 15, 2012 by morella

[Sliver Chocobo]

Also, have you seen Reaper's Legion of Justice and Caeke?

Adding - Also, I skipped this thread for a few days because I interpreted the title as someone was looking for a more risque Lady J. Like the woman doesn't have a hard enough time fighting undead in a corset and skin-tight pants.

Same here, although it did turn into an interesting topic

Also want, want now

[ThePandaDirector]

So did not need that image this early in the day

Let's just hope it doesn't inspire the next Iron Painter contestants =P

I didn't mean to pick on you, I thought it was nice of you to note, because I think you're great. Just wanted to add that, for me at least, there are larger issues to consider if the goal is to increase the number of women gamers, this would not even make my top ten.

You don't need to worry about picking on me, but you do need to tell me I'm great... coz... *falters* I am =D

I'd be really interested to know what you do think are the barriers to entry for female gamers/hobbyists, but I think that deserves its own thread. *clicks fingers* Let's go girlfriend! (I promise not to do that again)

Also, have you seen Reaper's Legion of Justice and Caeke?

I'm man enough to admit I squeeled and clapped like a pre-teen girl when I saw those (there's another image for you), especially the hedgehog =] I am an unashamed fan of all things cute, even if I also love a lot of violent things too (see my sig).

[morella]

I'd be really interested to know what you do think are the barriers to entry for female gamers/hobbyists, but I think that deserves its own thread. *clicks fingers* Let's go girlfriend! (I promise not to do that again)

I'm happy to discuss it in another thread, and hopefully other ladies would chime in just to get a better picture, but I won't be the one to start it. I was planning on writing about it in a blog post and some point in the future though.

And I had no idea you liked cute things!*grin*

There was a thread on the reaper forums a long time ago about the attack of the cute in the minis industry.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I'm happy to discuss it in another thread, and hopefully other ladies would chime in just to get a better picture, but I won't be the one to start it. I was planning on writing about it in a blog post and some point in the future though.

And I had no idea you liked cute things!*grin*

There was a thread on the reaper forums a long time ago about the attack of the cute in the minis industry.

We all like cute things here, pandas, Chocobo and puppets

[morella]

We all like cute things here, pandas, Chocobo and puppets

and my little pony (for those of you who missed that thread, just search)

[Math Mathonwy]

The model is terrible, but the sculptor, James Van Schaik, has produced great work.

He's kinda the reason I don't like Wyrd minis nearly as much as I used to. Before Malifaux I bought some Wyrd minis solely for the looks. These days... Eh. Maybe 10% of Wyrd minis have the "wow factor" anymore for me when it used to be 50-70%. Now, I realize that lots of people like James's work, but for me, personally, his work has curbed my enthusiasm for Wyrd and Malifaux more than any other single issue.

[ThePandaDirector]

He's kinda the reason I don't like Wyrd minis nearly as much as I used to. Before Malifaux I bought some Wyrd minis solely for the looks. These days... Eh. Maybe 10% of Wyrd minis have the "wow factor" anymore for me when it used to be 50-70%. Now, I realize that lots of people like James's work, but for me, personally, his work has curbed my enthusiasm for Wyrd and Malifaux more than any other single issue.

Without starting a whole new topic, can you just list what you consider to be really good models (wow factor)? I mean I count James as one of the old sculptors because he's done book 1 models (Scales of Justice is lovely, Nurses are horrid), but my own taste is spread accross the whole range with little "wow factor" limited to a certain sculptor or time period. Also the apparent change in style (for me Malifaux was always cartoonie, and as much as I usually don't like that, it's remained a consistent ratio) is on Wyrd's head, not the sculptors (though you seem to know what you're looking for in sculpt quality). I'm just curious because I see a lot of your criticism and have no frame of reference to place it in, just a meaningless "in the old days" =]

[Math Mathonwy]

Without starting a whole new topic, can you just list what you consider to be really good models (wow factor)? I mean I count James as one of the old sculptors because he's done book 1 models (Scales of Justice is lovely, Nurses are horrid), but my own taste is spread accross the whole range with little "wow factor" limited to a certain sculptor or time period. Also the apparent change in style (for me Malifaux was always cartoonie, and as much as I usually don't like that, it's remained a consistent ratio) is on Wyrd's head, not the sculptors (though you seem to know what you're looking for in sculpt quality). I'm just curious because I see a lot of your criticism and have no frame of reference to place it in, just a meaningless "in the old days" =]

Death Marshalls, original Lady Justice, Executioner, Witchling Stalkers, Seamus, Sybelle, Mortimer, Bishop, Silurids, original Perdita, original Hamelin and Nix, original Rasputina - want me to go on?

And I'm not saying that James is utterly without merit or anything like that. I for example liked his Ten Thunders Brothers a lot. It's just that he is doing a lot of sculpting and it seems that he isn't spending enough time to really hone them (as evidenced by the piece in the OP - I mean, it's a bad concept but the sculpt is very rough as well) or else he just has a very different aesthetic than me. But there really are stuff in his sculpts that I consider mistakes. His work on long hair, for example, is really unpleasing to me.

[G. Footman]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6410[/ATTACH]

pandagirl.....I'm not sure if it's supposed to be sexy or terrifying