Lilith Wall-locking cheese?

[Eyclonus]

Ok after playing a game recently against Lilith there occurred one point where she was able to beat Collodi and two marionettes to death through a wall. Just checking if this is how it goes:

Master of Malifaux allows her to "see" models on the other side of a wall. In this case it was a piece of folded paper and the three models were in B2B with the wall.

Greatsword's reach of 2" means that if she is B2B with the other side of the wall she's clearly got them in range.

Disengaging strikes apply when my models try to move outside of the 1.9" bubble overlapping the wall. On a hit they don't move and because of Wicked she gets to deal damage, possibly triggering Bloody Fate to get better cards to keep this up.

So if I tried any of Collodi's movement tricks, she could in fact stop them and get free attacks? And with Whirling Death she gets 3 targets plus anything that was Transpositioned with a Terror Tot into range on the other side of the wall? And I can't do anything against it because of the terrain blocking LoS for me but not for Lilith?

I'm wondering if this is a) how it works and more importantly Legal?

It doesn't seem to be an efficient tactic to use, but a very cheesy exploit in the moment.

[Ozzit]

Its completley legal and imo not cheesy at all. You can avoid this easy by positioning your models oaway from walls close to Lilith. As a collodi player you can even get away easy with pushes if you find yourself geting hit from the other side of a wall.

[edonil]

Yep. Especially with Collodi, keep in mind that pushes don't generate disengaging strikes.

[Mister_Q]

Yep - that's how it works. She can't use Whirling Death on disengaging models though; she just gets a normal strike.

As Ozzit mentioned though - don't forget you don't get a disengaging strike against models that Push out of range. She also can't draw LoS though other models, so she can't strike a model that's behind another. Given Collodi and Co's tricks with pushing each other they should have too much trouble escaping.

[Eyclonus]

The striking a model behind another never came up he positioned the Tot right on the wall with the rest and then had the Cherub transposition another Marionette in so it wasn't blocked. Mostly was wondering about the disengaging strikes from using Collodi's abilities. So I guess he was wrong about that, but correct if I had used normal movement.

Whirling Death was just something that cropped up later in the incident as he was using Lilith to deal with my other stuff trying to dogpile her so I could get Collodi out of harm's way. It ended poorly.

Anyway thanks for clearing this up, looks like I need to be better aware of Lilith's Master of Malifaux rule.

[Therril_83]

Regarding Collodi and pushes, do remember that the wording on the (1) Pull Strings is "This model moves up to it's Wk. Move a friendly Collodi into base contact with this model after the move." (the underlined words marked by me ofc)

This means they are not pushes and does in fact generate disengaging strikes.

it's commented by WEiRD sKeTCH here <-

[edonil]

... >.< Right. I should've known that. Duh. :slap:

[Nephilim Nate]

No one seems to have asked what the hight of the wall was. This seems important as you could potentially hit back (for what it's worth against Lilith) and if it's hight 1 it wouldn't block Lilith's LOS even without Master of Malifaux.

[Kadeton]

It's also worth noting that you can't trigger Bloody Fate (or any other trigger) on a disengaging strike. (pg. 48)

[Eyclonus]

No one seems to have asked what the hight of the wall was. This seems important as you could potentially hit back (for what it's worth against Lilith) and if it's hight 1 it wouldn't block Lilith's LOS even without Master of Malifaux.

It was a meant to be the side of a house, so the height issue never came up.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm wondering if this is a) how it works and more importantly Legal?

It doesn't seem to be an efficient tactic to use, but a very cheesy exploit in the moment.

Rather than being an exploit, it is fully intended. It reflects how she fights in the fluff (I believe there are stories with her disappearing and attacking through walls in the Wyrd Chronicles).

Historically speaking she could do it from the start of Malifaux, then a change in the rules made it impossible, only for the V2 card to restore the ability. Around that time we had a clarification that yes, it is fully intended.

---------- Post added at 07:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------

As Ozzit mentioned though - don't forget you don't get a disengaging strike against models that Push out of range. She also can't draw LoS though other models, so she can't strike a model that's behind another.

That depends on the model's Ht, doesn't it? With Collodi most of the models are Ht1, so they won't block much, I believe.

[Nazull]

She also can't draw LoS though other models, so she can't strike a model that's behind another. Given Collodi and Co's tricks with pushing each other they should have too much trouble escaping.

I thought she can still hit them as they leave hear meele range. as it dose not say anything about needed LOS to do a disengaging strikes vs someone.

[Finnegan]

I thought she can still hit them as they leave hear meele range. as it dose not say anything about needed LOS to do a disengaging strikes vs someone.

A Strike is a targetted action, thus can only be performed if the model performing it has LoS to its intended target, whether it be disengaging or not (unless the card says otherwise).

[Q'iq'el]

Also, according to the Errata/FAQ, the Disengaging Strike happens when model leaves melee range or LoS, whichever happens first, so there seems to be no reliable way of avoiding them, other than pushes and placement effects.