Is this just my inclination to interpret it as "Codex supercedes all"?

[ChrisLucPicard]

Okay guys, got a Hoffman question for you!

I've been playing my Hoffman crew with both Ryle and the Soulstone Miner, ignoring the "A Crew can not contain models from more than one Special Forces group." in favour of Hoffman's "Arcanist Ties"?

Maybe it's just the GW influence, but I read this as a "Codex Supercedes All" kind of situation? Arcanist Ties reads;

"Crews containing this model may hire Arcanist Contructs without the Frozen Heart or Smoldering Heart Abilities"

Hiring Ryle as my one type of "Special Forces" unit, the Miner still fits the requirements listed by Arcanist Ties.

I'll refer to the Introduction of book one?

"Breaking the Rules:Gameplay rules are intended to be understood when taken as a whole. They create the framework... blah blah blah... When a model's specific rule or ability contradicts these core rules, follow the specific rule rather than the core rules."

Come on guys... I want to play with both in my list. I'm right... right?

[Cunning]

Arcanist Ties does not supersede the special forces rules and in no way infers that it does. It just gives you a wider selection of models to pick from.

[ChrisLucPicard]

Even though the specific rule contradicts the core rule? When the book says "...when the specific rule contradicts the core rules, follow the specific rule rather than the core rule"?

[Cunning]

How does it contradict it? It doesn't say anything about special forces. All it's doing is allowing you to hire some out of faction models.

[ChrisLucPicard]

Rules Manual, p. 10: "A Crew can not contain models from more than one Special Forces group."

Ryle is Special Forces (Elites Division).

Soulstone Miner is Special Forces (M&SU Asset).

That is the core rule, the "specific" rule is Arcanist Ties, which says Hoffman can hire any Construct without the two "Heart" abilities. Hiring Ryle as my one type of SF, still leaves the Miner fitting the requirements of the "Specific" rule, which you're supposed to follow over the "core" rule.

---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

The Soulstone Miner IS an Arcanist Construct, without the Frozen or Smoldering Heart Abilities, and subject to the Arcanist Tie rules (again, a "specific" rule, which is supposed to take precedence over the "core" rules) which in my interpretation, give Hoffman "free reign" over Guild and Arcanist Constructs? "Free Reign" would seem strange to have limitations put on it?

[Cunning]

You're getting things a bit muddled here. The rule which Arcanist ties alters is the rule which says you can only hire from your own faction or mercenaries. Arcanist ties expands it to include a few constructs from the arcanist faction. It does not alter the Special Forces rules.

If it did the rules for hiring would be at loggerheads with the special forces rules.

Which they aren't.

[ChrisLucPicard]

Loggerheads?

[Cunning]

It means that they cant both work at the same time.

[ChrisLucPicard]

I'm interpreting it the same way you are, just taking the idea of;

"Arcanist ties expands it to include a few constructs from the arcanist faction"

to mean that Hoffman can take Arcanist Constructs without restriction, except the listed restrictions, and SF considerations, are not listed.

However, I bow to the Henchmen, who know far more than I do?

[Cunning]

Well I wouldn't say that Henchmen are infallible.

The point is that there is nothing in the rule to say that special forces restrictions are lifted. You're reading a bit too much into the work 'any'. If it lifted restrictions unreservedly without having to specify it then you'd also be able to hire as many soulstone miners as you wanted rather than just the 2 you are allowed due to Rare 2.

[ChrisLucPicard]

Is it possible to read too much into the word "any"?

---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

It also just feels weird thematically that taking Ryle (his brother) somehow locks out the extra constructs he's supposed to be able to take? Seems like a strange restriction that doesn't suit the thematic "purpose"?

Oh well... sigh...

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

Also, I never said "infallible"... I'm still right, I just accept your interpretation as "correct" (obnoxious quotation marks included) as a Henchmen.

In case no one caught it... full sarcasm was included in this post.

[nilus]

It also just feels weird thematically that taking Ryle (his brother) somehow locks out the extra constructs he's supposed to be able to take? Seems like a strange restriction that doesn't suit the thematic "purpose"?

Oh well... sigh...

Or maybe that story just hasn't been written yet. Maybe Ryle and the Soul Stone miner were once lovers but due to a misunderstanding Ryle thought the Soul Stoner miner was having an affair with a Corphee Duet. Heart broken Ryle fell into the strong protective arms of Guardian. A Watcher saw the whole thing and told the Corphee duets who shared it with the Miner. Needless to say the Miner and Ryle never talked again. The Watcher was so mortified by the events that it vowed to never hand out with Arcanists again and likewise the Corphee vowed to never hang out with Guild constructs because they are big babies.

See you just need to reach for the theme a bit

[Dreygan]

It also just feels weird thematically that taking Ryle (his brother) somehow locks out the extra constructs he's supposed to be able to take?

Taking ryle, does not prevent you from taking steamborg executioner or steampunk arachnids or any other archanist construct without a special forces tag that fits within that rule.

Just as Zoraida has the ability Enthrall: Crews containing this model may hire any living model with WP 4 or less. This ability gives me the ability to hire quite a few different options for her crew. However, if i have a doll in my crew regardless of faction, i cannot hire any other special forces, as that aspect is not overwritten by the rule.

[ChrisLucPicard]

@Dreygan

"Taking ryle, does not prevent you from taking steamborg executioner or steampunk arachnids or any other archanist construct without a special forces tag that fits within that rule."

Nope, just the one, which is why it feels so wrong to me?

@Nilus

That is the greatest story ever told. I have already begun work on my House Ruled Ryle/Miner/Corphee Duet Love Triangle Crew.

---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

"Taking ryle, does not prevent you from taking steamborg executioner or steampunk arachnids or any other archanist construct without a special forces tag that fits within that rule."

That's exactly why I feel like my interpretation should be "more correct" the rule clearly lets you take the REST of the Arcanist constructs, and limits JUST the Soulstone Miner. That's the conflicting part of the rule, that to me, doesn't make sense. Arcanist Ties is clearly a "Unlocks Arcanist Construct" rule in intent. Then, due to a SF wording, placing an extra restriction for crew building, a single Arcanist Construct is dis-included from that list, but ONLY when taking Ryle.

I read the intent of the rule, as being that Hoffman can take any Arcanist Constructs, and the idea that the Miner is banned, but only when taking Ryle, seems like an unintended rule conflict. Unless it's literally interpreted as "any"?

Or if we assume Nilus' story is correct... which I'm more and more inclined to do.

[Dreygan]

in all honesty, i feel that if it wasnt at least semi intended, ryle wouldnt have the special forces tag.

[ChrisLucPicard]

Unless the "Arcanist Ties" rule WAS meant to mean literally "any". In which case, giving him the SF tag doesn't change anything (in a Hoffman crew). And it still prevents Ryle from being combo-ed with ANYthing other than the Miner. It's not like it allows a weird flood of unintended combos?

At this point, in case anyone had missed it. I bow to the "ruling" just arguing for the sake of discussion?

[Gensuke626]

Just arguing for the sake of discussion...however if you're a veteran GW player then there is one rule of forum debate that you are forgetting (Or possibly are unaware of if you don't debate on forums):

If you have to reduce your argument to "Rules as Intended" without a cited reference from one of the developers responsible for the rule then you have automatically lost the argument.

Without direct input from the development team the only two viable interpretations of a rule are Rules as Written and Game as Played. Since Game as Played varies from area to area, that particular form of interpretation is only viable within a specific gaming community. Which leaves Rules as Written.

Rules as Written:

1.Hoffman may hire any Arcanist Construct without Smouldering or Frozen heart. Hoffman can hire the SS miner.

2.Ryle is a Guild model. Hoffman can hire Ryle.

3.Ryle has the Special Forces (Elite Division) tag. Hiring Ryle prevents you from hiring models from any special forces other than Elite Divison unless otherwise specified.

4.SS Miner has the Special Forces (M&SU Asset) tag. Hiring the SS Miner prevents you from hiring models from any special forces other than M&SU Assets unless otherwise specified.

5.Arcanist Ties does not specifically override Special forces restrictions. Hoffman can not hire both Ryle and SS Miner.

To jump back to GW arguments, the equivalent argument you are making in 40k terms is "Power of the Machine Spirit says that I may always fire 1 weapon. My Land Raider has been Wrecked, but it is still a Land Raider, thus I may still fire my Lascannons."

Again, I'm just debating for the sake of discussion and in no way should anything I just typed be taken as an insult or attack directed at you. I feel silly to have to mention that but I feel like if I didn't say that then people would interpret my post as a personal attack...which is sad, but this is the internet.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Gensuke626

[Ausplosions]

I play Leveticus. He can take any Soulless, construct or Undead model.

By your reasoning I could take in one crew a Rogue Necromancy, Wicked Dolls, the Soulstone miner, Ryle, etc, etc.

You Don't get to ignore the SF rules unless your hiring rules specifically state that you do.

Your interpretation of Arcanist Ties is wrong.

[RotatingPanda]

The OP is one of my best friends and we have been chatting about this IRL and this is the logic I followed.

Hoffman has "Arcanist Ties: Crews containing this model MAY hire Arcanist Constructs..."

Rules manual, p. 7: "When the rules on two models directly contradict each other, a rule that says CAN overrides MAY, and a rule that says CANNOT will override CAN."

Special Forces, p. 10: "A Crew CANNOT contain models from more than one Special Forces group."

So, Hoffman MAY hire Arcanist Constructs but CANNOT contain more than one Special Forces group. Because CANNOT overrides CAN which, in turn, overrides CAN, he CANNOT have more than one Special Forces group.

[Dreygan]

By your reasoning I could take in one crew a Rogue Necromancy, Wicked Dolls, the Soulstone miner, Ryle, etc, etc.

I have Leveticus but dont play him much... not sure if this idea horrifies me or makes me want to spit rainbows.

[Keltheos]

There's also this rule in the Hiring section under General hiring (p71) that states:

"...Models hired by a Crew must meet all special hiring rule restrictions or they cannot be hired."

So the spinning bear has it.

[Gensuke626]

Thanks Kelthos!

[Ratty]

Yep what Kel says.

But it really comes down to this. Hoffman may hire Ryle, Hoffman may hire the Soulstone miner. Ryle and the Soulstone miner can't be in the same crew.

Every model in a crew must be able to be taken with every other model in the crew.

[Kadeton]

Fluff justifications are easy:

When Hoffman goes to ask Ramos for help with a specific mission, Ramos says, "Well, listen... I have a very special construct I've been working on. I'm happy to lend it to you, but... you have to promise to keep it away from your brother, all right? No, I can't tell you why, I'm sorry. Just trust me on this one, it's really important."

And it's all mysteeeeeerious and stuff.

[nilus]

And it's all mysteeeeeerious and stuff.

I preferred my broken heart story. It combines the silliness of robot love with the ewwwww factor of how exactly does someone love a Soul Stone Miner Physically.

[Requirement]

I preferred my broken heart story. It combines the silliness of robot love with the ewwwww factor of how exactly does someone love a Soul Stone Miner Physically.

Watch out nilus.... you know you can't put things like that on the internet... they come true.