Clarification sought with Freikorps

[WLSFK]

Hi Wyrd people,

I've just started playing with my 1st crew, Von Schill and the Freikorps and have a question.

Both Von Schill and the Trapper have a Trigger called Reposition.

It reads:

Cb (:masks) Reposition[Clockwork Rifle/Seeker] After damaging defender with this Weapon, Push this model up to 3".

Now I was made to play this push on my Trapper/Von Schill, but I feel that the wounded Defender should be Pushed. Who should be Pushed by the Trigger?

Thanks WLSFK

[Undisclosed]

THe Trapper or Von Schill make the push.

'Push this model up to 3" ' Emphasis mine.

It's a useful trigger for moving about the board a bit more or getting out of range of a potential retaliation.

[WLSFK]

Cheers Undisclosed,

That was how we played it, it just seems off as the wounded model has only just been shot and would stagger back from the impact, while the shooting model has no cause to be moved...

WLSFK

[Ratty]

Watch Enemy at the Gates.. Well to be honest watch it just because it's quite a cool film.. But the main upshot is every time a trained Sniper makes a shot he moves position so it's hard for the enemy to locate where the shots come from and return fire or Mortar his position.

So the the Trapper is good enough to get a shot off and move to the next position in the time it would take a normal man to fire off a single aimed shot.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Ratty

[Cadilon]

Now I was made to play this push on my Trapper/Von Schill, but I feel that the wounded Defender should be Pushed. Who should be Pushed by the Trigger?

Someone can jump in and correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding from RM pg 26 that you aren't -required- to declare a trigger if you don't like.

You should not have been "made" to take this trigger if you didn't want to.

[Stonedog-7]

That was how we played it, it just seems off as the wounded model has only just been shot and would stagger back from the impact, while the shooting model has no cause to be moved...

Well, it is called reposition and not stagger or knockback... but yeah, i'm pretty sure Cadilon is right and you don't HAVE to declare the trigger just because you got the requirement

[Ratty]

It also says "up to", so even if you declare it you don't have to move any distance.

[Kadeton]

Watch Enemy at the Gates.. Well to be honest watch it just because it's quite a cool film.. But the main upshot is every time a trained Sniper makes a shot he moves position so it's hard for the enemy to locate where the shots come from and return fire or Mortar his position.

So the the Trapper is good enough to get a shot off and move to the next position in the time it would take a normal man to fire off a single aimed shot.

Ah, if only Hans had learned how to be a real sniper...

[Omenbringer]

Ah, if only Hans had learned how to be a real sniper...

Hans is the only one that is actually a sniper all the others (Nino, Rami & Trappers) are P.I.G.s.

[96p]

whats a P.I.G.s. ?

[Omenbringer]

Professionally Instructed Gunmen

Not to be confused with H.O.G.s

[JMGraham]

whats a P.I.G.s. ?

Professionally Instructed Gunmen.

[Kadeton]

Hans is the only one that is actually a sniper all the others (Nino, Rami & Trappers) are P.I.G.s.

Regardless of the terminology, Hans could stand to take a few tips from any of them. They would probably tell him to buy a better gun, and then learn how to actually shoot a gun, as well as learn to run away from people instead of standing still and letting them stab him in the face... he could keep the goggles, though.

[WLSFK]

Thanks to all,

So many little tricky, and very cool, elements involved in being able to read and understand all the things each and every modle can do in Malifaux.

Now to get MORE!!!

WLSFK

[Requirement]

Now to get MORE!!!

Oh good, someone else with the fever.

[Omenbringer]

Regardless of the terminology, Hans could stand to take a few tips from any of them. They would probably tell him to buy a better gun, and then learn how to actually shoot a gun, as well as learn to run away from people instead of standing still and letting them stab him in the face... he could keep the goggles, though.

Or he could be employed in the actual sniper role of Hunting Other Gunmen by hiding behind obscuring terrain/ Models (which he doesn't care about at all), focusing his shots, taking well placed Headshots or Critical strikes at 4/ 4/ 7 damage with the addition of a :rams card (that could also potentially ignore Armor) and having supporting forces protect him from retaliation (like snipers in urban terrain). Hans may not be auto-include everytime but he isn't that bad when employed as a sniper.

[Kadeton]

Or he could be employed in the actual sniper role of Hunting Other Gunmen by hiding behind obscuring terrain/ Models (which he doesn't care about at all), focusing his shots, taking well placed Headshots or Critical strikes at 4/ 4/ 7 damage with the addition of a :rams card (that could also potentially ignore Armor) and having supporting forces protect him from retaliation (like snipers in urban terrain). Hans may not be auto-include everytime but he isn't that bad when employed as a sniper.

That sounds great until you realise that any other long-range gunner (Nino, Trapper, Austringer) can do the same job better, for fewer stones, and with the ability to escape from or at least fight in melee. Even if you find yourself in that perfect sniper nest with LoS for other gunmen blocked by obscuring terrain that Hans can shoot through... well, an Austringer will still kill you regardless, and you won't be able to touch him. Von Schill will still jump on your head and smash you like a goomba, as will any number of other fast-moving beaters.

Anyway, most of this is simply my sour grapes at how expensive and lame Hans is, when I'd really like to include him in lists because his model is cool - sort of the same issue that I have with Bishop. Somewhere along the line, the unique Book 1 Outcast mercenary minions got screwed on SS costs. They're pretty much all in that camp of models that are a bit crap, but have their adamant defenders touting that they can still be sort of useful in highly specific situations.

[Omenbringer]

Anyway, most of this is simply my sour grapes at how expensive and lame Hans is, when I'd really like to include him in lists because his model is cool - sort of the same issue that I have with Bishop. Somewhere along the line, the unique Book 1 Outcast mercenary minions got screwed on SS costs. They're pretty much all in that camp of models that are a bit crap, but have their adamant defenders touting that they can still be sort of useful in highly specific situations.

I feel the same way about Misaki however you have to remember that most of the Book 1 Mercs were designed to fill holes in the faction line ups, not be auto-includes in every list. Hans, Bishop, Killjoy, Misaki, etc all have there uses in certain niches however none of them are considered auto-include.

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

That sounds great until you realise that any other long-range gunner (Nino, Trapper, Austringer) can do the same job better, for fewer stones, and with the ability to escape from or at least fight in melee. Even if you find yourself in that perfect sniper nest with LoS for other gunmen blocked by obscuring terrain that Hans can shoot through... well, an Austringer will still kill you regardless, and you won't be able to touch him. Von Schill will still jump on your head and smash you like a goomba, as will any number of other fast-moving beaters.

Against Austringers any of the ranged threats (Nino, Rami, Trappers or even other Austringers) are in the same potential danger. Fast moving Beat Sticks like VonSchill or Collodi can get to him and potentially squash him if alone, this is why I stressed that he have supporting forces with him. Base blocking is a very simple and effective way of protecting your investment while still allowing him to be 100% effective.

[Kadeton]

I feel the same way about Misaki however you have to remember that most of the Book 1 Mercs were designed to fill holes in the faction line ups, not be auto-includes in every list. Hans, Bishop, Killjoy, Misaki, etc all have there uses in certain niches however none of them are considered auto-include.

Sucks when Outcasts (especially the Viks) are your primary master, though. It ends up being Freikorps all the way, with the occasional support of Taelor or Johan since they're at least half-decent.

Against Austringers any of the ranged threats (Nino, Rami, Trappers or even other Austringers) are in the same potential danger. Fast moving Beat Sticks like VonSchill or Collodi can get to him and potentially squash him if alone, this is why I stressed that he have supporting forces with him. Base blocking is a very simple and effective way of protecting your investment while still allowing him to be 100% effective.

What do you use to base block him? Whatever other minions you use for that are probably not able to contribute much to the rest of the game, which pumps his effective SS cost through the roof (combined cost of him and all his babysitters). You'd need at least two models to block effectively from one direction, and that still won't protect him from things like Collodi - you would need to literally surround his base.

My point with the Austringer was in regard to your idea of using him to hunt other gunmen... all the other gunmen are better at hunting other gunmen than Hans is, in my opinion, and also better at hunting everyone else. Hans' only advantage over Nino and the Trappers is if the board is covered in obscuring terrain (or the various fogs), but Austringers care about that stuff even less.

[Omenbringer]

Base blocking is easier when including terrain. Additionally in certain situations (read as countering opponents Strategies or assisting with your announced Schemes) camping can be a very good thing.

Granted you have your own admitted bias that Hans is crap, no ammount of counter argument will change your mind on that. I definately dont think he is as bad as you are making out though, he has his uses in actual play (with terrain on the board and actual card draws and cheating) and can be effective a lot of times. Nino, Rami and Trappers can all be shut down by interveening models or obscuring terrain and defended against by cover (Hans can not). The Austringer is a unique exception, however is still only really effective against Hans when using Hunting Raptor which wont kill him in one go without the Red Joker for damage (even if he does trigger Critical Strike). Bulletproof 2 goes a long way toward increasing Hans survivability against all of these models as well.

He is not auto-include by any means but he has his uses.

[Kadeton]

Heh, sorry, I tend to slip into a pretty combative tone in these discussions. I'm not actually trying to convince anyone that Hans is terrible per se, I've just never been able to find a situation where he's useful. I've never been able to base block the opponent from engaging him, because I need my models elsewhere, and the sort of things that go for him tend to do so from well outside his maximum range, so he never gets a chance to do a damn thing.

Honestly, the thing that most grinds my gears is taking him in comparison to Nino. I can ignore Austringers, they're a special case, but Nino is simply a flat-out better version of Hans, for fewer points. Better base damage, better triggers, enormously better Cb, better stats in every single category, the ability to shoot more than one target per turn, a melee escape... Ugh. I realise he's missing some stuff that can give Hans a situational advantage, like Ruthless, Sniper, Bulletproof and the Goggles, but I've never had it impact on Nino's effectiveness much. Baseline reliability is better than situational advantage, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'll stop now, we're definitely retreading ground here. Feel free to post some final thoughts and then I think we can leave it there. Apologies if I came across as overly argumentative.

[Omenbringer]

Hey no worries it happens to us all.

I agree that Guild probably sees the least bit of benefit out of Hans since they do have both Austringers and Nino (both of which are cheaper) to choose from. I would say however that the faction that receives the most benefit from him is the Ressurectionists since they generally lack in the Range Department and are somewhat slow. I have used Hans to much greater effect with Seamus (my second favorite Master) than probably any of the others I have played him in (Belles are great for Luring him into position and protecting him without hampering his shooting).