Hamelin - is he really that hamy?

[Q'iq'el]

Oh, I understand the intention is sincere. I'm simply pointing out extreme examples is where the theory gaming gets disingenuous.

You can't call such a build possibility, if there is virtually no chance to pull it off (and I'll remind you the original claim the list will grow 18SS worth in the first turn and do it better than Nekima, who isn't even limited by the suit and high value requirements! These were simply false claims). It's the reason for my qualm with Nico/Canine Remains lists or Nemima's Growth lists. Even though your chances of pulling it off with these lists is very significantly higher, it is still somewhat disingenuous to tell a new player these are working lists. At least they have a gambling potential. Hamelin with Tots has virtually none.

As for the minutae of Nephilim survivability, I'll just say there's a reason Matures live in Defensive Stance. But it is an OT and it depends on the circumstances anyway.

[schristofersen]

In turn 1?!? All 6 high :masks?!? Seriously...

no no... I should have pointed out that in the course of a game that is going to happen. As has been pointed out in this thread this particular list isn't as likely to be as viable as including some other models, but the point is that the terror tots are an example of that particular mechanic not just being a problem due to rats reactivating. You can grow tots to mature more easily than it seems despite there only being 6 cards in the deck that allow it. You can frequently grab that card and use it repeatedly is my point.

Edited April 17, 2012 by schristofersen

[Trevelyan]

And if you play in your local club with limited choice of masters' date=' so that you always know what you will be playing against... well, perhaps this is the reason why you think the game is unbalanced or has OP masters in it? Perhaps you are allowing your opponents to optimize their crews in a way they shouldn't be able to. Get a second master of the same faction, build entirely different play style crew around it and surprise them every once in a while. They'll have to modify their list to deal with this uncertainty and the things will get better for both of you.[/quote']

This seems important.

If some people are only ever playing with the same master against Hamelin in situations where Hamelin has the advantage and the master in question lacks the tools (or the player lacks the models) to try something different/effective, then I can see people getting upset with Hamelin.

But is that the case? Does Hamelin have any significant weaknesses? Are there particular masters and Strategies which Hamelin struggles to cope with - the PullMyFinger Wiki suggests a few, but what are people's experiences here? Does anyone have a track record of defeating Hamelin with a marticular Master/crew, or are there any Hamelin players who can point to weaknesses in his typical strategies and crews?

[Omenbringer]

and I'll remind you the original claim the list will grow 18SS worth in the first turn and do it better than Nekima' date=' who isn't even limited by the suit and high value requirements! These were simply false claims). It's the reason for my qualm with Nico/Canine Remains lists or Nemima's Growth lists. Even though your chances of pulling it off with these lists is very significantly higher, it is still somewhat disingenuous to tell a new player these are working lists. At least they have a gambling potential. Hamelin with Tots has virtually none.[/quote']

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

A few reasons for this;

1. Nekima's cost is pretty prohibitive in a grow list
   
2. Without Access to the self-replenishing Malifaux Rat, she is limited by Blood Counters. Having to rely on other living/undead models providing them or her taking 4 Wd's from Blood Offering for one

Though I cant argue she makes it a lot easier to cast the Grow or Mature spells because of her Nurture Nephilim ability and her 0 action Nephilim Heart, Hamelin isn't without his tricks. The Void and Abandoned Soul go along way to over coming fate (especially when used on a "free" the Stolen which also provides another Rat, in addition to the 2 Control Cards and healing of 2 Wds). Reduce that Cache or hire one less Terror Tot and add in an Obedient Wretch for another Control Card a turn (3 if you sac her for abandoned soul after she uses Blind Dedication).

Granted this is all theory and in an actual game will definately provide very different results (Some'r and the Gremlin Taxidermist have taught me that).

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

Definately aggree that Q'iq'el's post is an important part of the discussion. It has been said many times however by Wyrd staff that the game should not be "rock-papper-scissors".

He doesn't have a lot of weaknesses and the ones that are listed on Pull My Finger as difficult matchups are far from cake walks (change of tactics will usually still provide the win).

I haven't heard of very many people (perhaps they are keeping their secrets) that have a consistent proven track record against Hamelin. As for solid useable information for consistently beating Hamelin, I'll differ to Magicpockets.

[Q'iq'el]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

A few reasons for this;

1. Nekima's cost is pretty prohibitive in a grow list
   
2. Without Access to the self-replenishing Malifaux Rat, she is limited by Blood Counters. Having to rely on other living/undead models providing them or her taking 4 Wd's from Blood Offering for one
   

From the Realfaux (as opposed to Theoryfaux) perspective, getting Blood Counters has never been a limiting factor. Lilith crew always has more Blood Counters than it can use.

Since Book 2 you can fit 5 Terror Tots, 2 Dms and Nekima in 35 SS list. You'll be low on Soulstones, but you can guarantee 5 Blood Counters in turn 1 and that gives you 2 Young and 1 Mature or 5 Young which is even better with Nekima (since she gives them auto-flay). With her help you can actually hope to get all that reliably. What is problematic is sacrifice of 1st turn to get dubious advantage.

For a list without Nakima lack of cards is always the limiting factor. It is hard to grow 2 Tots all the way to Mature during a single game. You're almost better of starting with Young, if you want to do it. Even with card Tricks, getting all the high Masks Exactly when needed is problematic.

The bottom line is this: being able to build exotic lists, growing by 15+SS etc. is hardly broken or problematic. These tricks throw off beginners, while being too unreliable. Committing to them loses games (because of the amount of resources you waste, while your opponent completes objectives). Such is Realfaux and IMHO it has to be kept in mind.

[JonotheGoose]

As a new player who hasn't yet run up against Hamlin. If only because my gaming group is small and no one seems taken with him yet. Having read through all of this I am keen to actually play Hamlin if only to see if he is as broken as all that.

Does this terrible constantly activating mob happen if the user is less experience with Hamlin or does it require a veteran play to pull this off?

[Trevelyan]

As a new player who hasn't yet run up against Hamlin. If only because my gaming group is small and no one seems taken with him yet. Having read through all of this I am keen to actually play Hamlin if only to see if he is as broken as all that.

My thoughts exactly. I've got the boxed set and a few extra minis in the post on that basis.

Does this terrible constantly activating mob happen if the user is less experience with Hamlin or does it require a veteran play to pull this off?

As another new player I could be mistaken on this, but my understanding is that only Hamelin and the Ratcatchers have Voracious Rats (with a 6" radius), and only the Ratcatchers have the ability to kill surrounding rats as a (0) action.

My assumption would be that you can only force a new activation yourself once per Ratcatcher, and that to apply that to the same batch of rats requires that they be working together. This might be viable at certain points in the game of for certain Strategies, but is likely to limit the amount of territory you can control at any given point.

Would I be right in assuming that the bigger problem with Voracious Rats comes not so much from the ability of Ratcatcher to double their activations, but more from the inability of the opposing crew to remove them, and the fact that pretty much any damage to a rat is likely to kill it and give the fresh rat yet another activation? If that is the case then is it no better to focus fire on Ratcatchers first, and only target rats when they are outside the range of Voracious Rats?

How easy is it for a Hamelin player to force other crews into melee with rats from which there is no real escape? Is that even the problem?

[magicpockets]

no no... I should have pointed out that in the course of a game that is going to happen. As has been pointed out in this thread this particular list isn't as likely to be as viable as including some other models, but the point is that the terror tots are an example of that particular mechanic not just being a problem due to rats reactivating. You can grow tots to mature more easily than it seems despite there only being 6 cards in the deck that allow it. You can frequently grab that card and use it repeatedly is my point.

Have you actually tried this? It's hard to successfully make use of two terror tots in a Neph grow list, let alone a theoryfaux list with stacks of tots. And that's not forgetting high :masks are Hamelin's favourite cards

Does this terrible constantly activating mob happen if the user is less experience with Hamlin or does it require a veteran play to pull this off?

1. Activate rats

2. Rats attack rats and drop new rats

3. Opponent has an activation

4. Rinse and repeat until your opponent is done activating

No veteran status needed *wink*

[Lucidicide]

Using rats to kill rats is not guaranteed (the wiles of flips), and yet remains horribly annoying and bent.

[JonotheGoose]

Huh well I am starting to learn towards not liking the idea of it.

Still should have a game against Hamlin I guess.

[Lucidicide]

Don't infinite activate your rats.

Then, ask if your opponent minds playing Hamelin. If not, do it. He's interesting and he can be a fun model to play as once you've got him down. He does have some interactions that are... wonky... but don't let that discourage you from playing him.

I haven't played against Hamelin much, but I can honestly say that I enjoy playing against everything sometimes.

[Trevelyan]

1. Activate rats

2. Rats attack rats and drop new rats

3. Opponent has an activation

4. Rinse and repeat until your opponent is done activating

So it's a trick for delaying your real activation until after your opponent has finished all of his activations, so allowing you free rein over the table, rather than a means to pile an endless horde of rats onto a a target until it crumbles?

[Lucidicide]

So it's a trick for delaying your real activation until after your opponent has finished all of his activations, so allowing you free rein over the table, rather than a means to pile an endless horde of rats onto a a target until it crumbles?

Yes

[schristofersen]

Have you actually tried this? It's hard to successfully make use of two terror tots in a Neph grow list, let alone a theoryfaux list with stacks of tots. And that's not forgetting high :masks are Hamelin's favourite cards

Yep. I have not had trouble with it, but then again my card luck is somewhat notorious and my signature continues to be true. Being able to pick up the top card of the deck when your opponant cheats is just so amazingly huge. Playing your high mask means your opponant is unlikley to want to cheat... but not cheating means they often fail to get off what they were intending to do, or fail their WP duel vs haunting melody and become insignificant. I do think that the real power of the Hamelin list is in the basic rats, nix, stolen crew. The tots are just a silly parody of the power of the list. Being able to out activiate your opponant and then leap out with everything you have got is pretty amazing... but not necessary as the crew has good synergy and resiliancy.

also of note is that, due to the blight counters, the 2SS rats rarely do less than 2 points of damage to a model. This can (and frequently does due to multiple reactivations with rat catchers) mean the demise of multiple models in range of the hoard of rats in the course of a single turn. Hamelin's ability to make models insignificant and only able to target Hamelin when they are within 12" (which they cannot do if they are insignificant...) allows control of pieces that the rats might not be able to handle. I've seen lots of comments that might be interpreted as saying that the crew is not well designed but I really feel like the opposite is true, the pieces just all work together too well for other crews to be seen as on the same level.

Also, I don't mind playing against any crew (post dreamer/LCB cuddles). I enjoy a challenge and think that play ability is way more important than crew selection (and is becoming more so as Wyrd makes adjustments). I DO think that there are ways to play crews that can be incredibly frustrating to another player and especially to a new player. Don't kill your game group with negative play experiences if at all possible. I have switched crews several times already in an attempt to keep things fresh. While some fools such as myself buy every model that comes out, there will certainly be people that don't have anything but a box set and a clamshell or two.

A win or two vs you playing a crew you are still trying to figure out or with models you have not figured out a use for yet will not only encourage a person just getting into the game but force you to come up with some novel ways to utilize models and push your play level up.

Edited April 19, 2012 by schristofersen

[magicpockets]

Playing your high mask means your opponant is unlikley to want to cheat...

I think you're playing that wrong, you can't pick up an "in play" card when your opponent cheats. So you cheat in a high :masks and, if your opponent cheats, you can pick from your discard pile or fate deck, but not the high :masks you've got in play.

Also, I'd be VERY surprised if you're regularly getting anywhere with more than 2 tots in the crew - you can't claim "I'm just lucky" as a viable basis for having that as a strategy. Plus, having more than two tots in a grow list is pointless as you can only have two matures, and youngs aren't that good - plus by the time you've taken 8ss for Hamelin, 7ss for Nix, 5ss for your Rat Catcher, 4ss for two rats and 6ss for your first 2x tots you've only got 5ss left to play with in a 35ss game...

also of note is that, due to the blight counters, the 2SS rats rarely do less than 2 points of damage to a model. This can (and frequently does due to multiple reactivations with rat catchers) mean the demise of multiple models in range of the hoard of rats in the course of a single turn. Hamelin's ability to make models insignificant and only able to target Hamelin when they are within 12" (which they cannot do if they are insignificant...) allows control of pieces that the rats might not be able to handle.

Yeah, I've kind of noticed that having played Hamelin a few times..... *wink*

[Finnegan]

I think you're playing that wrong, you can't pick up an "in play" card when your opponent cheats. So you cheat in a high :masks and, if your opponent cheats, you can pick from your discard pile or fate deck, but not the high :masks you've got in play.

A lot of people (myself included, when I'm not paying perfect attention) get this one wrong most of the time. Doesn't help that, if memory serves, the pullmyfinger article doesn't remind you specifically of this fact. I'll see if I can remember to edit this in tomorrow.

[schristofersen]

I think you're playing that wrong, you can't pick up an "in play" card when your opponent cheats. So you cheat in a high :masks and, if your opponent cheats, you can pick from your discard pile or fate deck, but not the high :masks you've got in play.

possible... but I don't think I am playing it wrong. I am attacking with the high :masks to get the trigger with Hamelin for Haunting melody and then it goes onto the top of the pile as the attack is resolved and the defender model must then win a Wp->combat total... or have I got the timing on that wrong? If I do so be it... but that doesn't take away from using the high :masks to grow and then picking it up when next they cheat.

EDIT: I did have this wrong... the attack card would not be on top of the stack as the damage is resolved and thus the damage card should be on the top of the stack... ah well can't learn without making mistakes.

Also, I'd be VERY surprised if you're regularly getting anywhere with more than 2 tots in the crew - you can't claim "I'm just lucky" as a viable basis for having that as a strategy. Plus, having more than two tots in a grow list is pointless as you can only have two matures, and youngs aren't that good - plus by the time you've taken 8ss for Hamelin, 7ss for Nix, 5ss for your Rat Catcher, 4ss for two rats and 6ss for your first 2x tots you've only got 5ss left to play with in a 35ss game...

Accurate. I have not made more than 2 tots grow into mature and you have acurately pointed out that theoryfaux has gotten out of hand with that example of nothing but tots and a rat... but the ability to have two tots grow into mature fairly easily is not something to sneeze at and is still a valid point about the Hamelin crew in my mind. The ability to grab the high :masks is both a deterant to your opponent cheating in their own cards and an ability to repeat grow actions multiple times if they do.

Yeah, I've kind of noticed that having played Hamelin a few times..... *wink*

You most certainly know! likely more than most. However the OP may not, and it is a way in which Hamelin is "that Hamy"

Edited April 19, 2012 by schristofersen

[Q'iq'el]

possible... but I don't think I am playing it wrong. I am attacking with the high :masks to get the trigger with Hamelin for Haunting melody and then it goes onto the top of the pile as the attack is resolved and the defender model must then win a Wp->combat total... or have I got the timing on that wrong?

For that very reason the rules for discarding of cards are very precisely defined. You discard all the cards used in the Duel only after the Duel is completely resolved, including the Damage Flip and all the flips generated by the Triggers (unless the Trigger starts an entire new Duel). If there is a Slow to Die interruption, you may end up with a significant portion of cards "frozen" until everything resolves.

What you can do, however, is to arrange the cards in any order you like before you discard and thus ensure, for example, the most powerful card used is on the top of Discard Pile after the Duel ends.

That is of course if memory serves me right.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[schristofersen]

For that very reason the rules for discarding of cards are very precisely defined. You discard all the cards used in the Duel only after the Duel is completely resolved, including the Damage Flip and all the flips generated by the Triggers (unless the Trigger starts an entire new Duel). If there is a Slow to Die interruption, you may end up with a significant portion of cards "frozen" until everything resolves.

What you can do, however, is to arrange the cards in any order you like before you discard and thus ensure, for example, the most powerful card used is on the top of Discard Pile after the Duel ends.

That is of course if memory serves me right.

hmm... i'm dubious of your interpretation and would like to clarify it. Rules state "when the duel is completed" which I do not interpret as including the duel for the resulting WP-> combat total flip.

As to picking order... nope. Rule is explicit that order in is order from bottom to top i.e. first card in first to go onto the pile, last card played last on top.

[SpiralngCadavr]

What you can do' date=' however, is to arrange the cards in any order you like before you discard and thus ensure, for example, the most powerful card used is on the top of Discard Pile after the Duel ends.[/quote']

Really? I'd be interested in a reference, here, as I always thought it needed to be in order, i.e.

your initial flips (in any order)

any you cheat with

any you buy with soulstones

your damage flip (in any order)

etc.

[Q'iq'el]

You are rigt about the discarding order. Seems I've been playing according to original wording all this time.

As to when the Duel ends, you need to check the Strike Duel and Casting Duel rules - as far as I remember applying the effects is the last step of the Duel, so it doesn't end until you finish that step.

Think about it this way - most Triggers complete before the Duel ends (the exception being ones that start an entirely new Action). Those that go after Damaging would be completely out of Duel that Triggered them, if the Duel ended before applying damage and resolving all the effects.

[magicpockets]

Think about it this way - most Triggers complete before the Duel ends (the exception being ones that start an entirely new Action). Those that go after Damaging would be completely out of Duel that Triggered them, if the Duel ended before applying damage and resolving all the effects.

This is right, Haunting Melody is not something that happens after the duel is resolved - it's a flip resulting from a trigger, which means it happens during the duel (i.e. the duel can't resolve until all triggers and damage are resolved)

---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

A lot of people (myself included, when I'm not paying perfect attention) get this one wrong most of the time. Doesn't help that, if memory serves, the pullmyfinger article doesn't remind you specifically of this fact. I'll see if I can remember to edit this in tomorrow.

Easiest way I've found is have three piles of cards with Hamelin - his deck on the left, his discard on the right, and an "in play" pile in the center. That way both you and your opponent can clearly see which cards are for what purpose, and what exactly is on top of the discard pile and available for picking up

[Finnegan]

A lot of people (myself included, when I'm not paying perfect attention) get this one wrong most of the time. Doesn't help that, if memory serves, the pullmyfinger article doesn't remind you specifically of this fact. I'll see if I can remember to edit this in tomorrow.

Update: memory didn't serve. Pullmyfinger had a line about cards in play vs cards in discard. I expanded upon it slightly with magicpockets' third pile suggestion - good idea :1_Happy_Puppet2: