What's on the autopsy table?

[aka_hazard]

We've already had a heavy hint that Hamlin is being dissected but is there any chance of a list of miniatures / mechanics / rules that are currently being reviewed so I know what I should avoid using time to learn?

[Hjelmen]

Personally, I'm more interested in an ETA on Hamelin errata.

I don't think it would be prudent for Wyrd to supply that though. Neither would it be wise to release a thorough list of everything that is being revised. I think that would throw a huge spanner in the works for everyone.

Just imagine knowing in advance that what you're doing may or may not be changed; no-one would play those miniatures at all, until the changes were released. I can see some huge issues with that

[aka_hazard]

Personally, I'm more interested in an ETA on Hamelin errata.

I don't think it would be prudent for Wyrd to supply that though. Neither would it be wise to release a thorough list of everything that is being revised. I think that would throw a huge spanner in the works for everyone.

Just imagine knowing in advance that what you're doing may or may not be changed; no-one would play those miniatures at all, until the changes were released. I can see some huge issues with that

You may be correct but as things stand, with not knowing what may or may not be changed, I'm considering shelving Malifaux completely for at least a year until things settle down.

[Calmdown]

On the block for fixing should be:

Hamelin

So'mer

The problem is that this will leave Kirai and Collette, with Collodi too, as the best crews in the game. None of them are broken per se, but they are the most powerful by a margin once you take Dreamer, Hamelin and So'mer out of the equation. So a cuddle of the broken masters, and a toning down of a few more, and Malifaux will be in a very good place indeed....

But at least now we know its getting somewhere, and that's all anyone can ever ask.

Shelving it because of change for the better is a bit silly though. Do you not get fun out of the games you play? Regardless of the rules changes, if you can't play a game because the game may change at a later date you're maybe not getting the enjoyment from the hobby that you should. I totally understand not buying new crews (particularly ones that may be on the chopping block) but shelving the game is a bit extreme.

[Lucidicide]

Everyone crying out for a Hamelin errata -- how often do you play as/against Hamelin? In those games, how often do you win?

With those answered, what do you feel is broken about Hamelin?

[magicpockets]

With those answered, what do you feel is broken about Hamelin?

Oh no......

[Hjelmen]

I'm not particularly crying out for a Hamelin errata. I'm just curious as to when it's going to hit, since it was announced that it is forthcoming

Oh no......

*grin* I love the mental image I just got of your expression when you typed that!

[aka_hazard]

@Calmdown - from my reading of the forum you are one of the players who has the ability to read the cards / rule book and almost immediately see the implications and possibilities and that is really cool.

Unfortunately for me I am not. I have to plod my way through things and that takes time.

After an initial shotgun approach I decided to learn one crew really well then use that crew to learn the strategies and schemes really well before moving on to play other crews. Because I liked the fluff and the miniatures the crew I chose to do this with was the Dreamer.

This crew has now had three quite major adjustments. Whether those adjustments are positive or negative is, for me, immaterial.

I do have numerous other crews, both painted and unpainted, that I can use so what I'm asking for here is some official guidance so I don't end up picking another crew that will have major adjustments in a few weeks/months time.

Just like AP and the cards in your hand my time is a limited resource so I want to spend it as wisely as possible.

If I'm likely to end up taking two step forwards and one back then I'd rather spend that time elsewhere and come back when things have settle down.

[Math Mathonwy]

The problem is that this will leave Kirai and Collette, with Collodi too, as the best crews in the game. None of them are broken per se, but they are the most powerful by a margin once you take Dreamer, Hamelin and So'mer out of the equation. So a cuddle of the broken masters, and a toning down of a few more, and Malifaux will be in a very good place indeed....

Collodi?

But I feel that Kirai's and Collette's power is different from Hamelin's and Dreamer's (and I suppose So'mer's) in that the former are a bit too powerful but the latter have/had interactions that are not good for the game and are really hard to balance through, for example, adding synergistic minions to other crews. I might call them more fundamental, in a way.

[Lucidicide]

Oh no......

You are in a unique position here because your opinions are already out here for all to see. I see a lot of other people saying Hamelin needs a fix, and I haven't heard a peep from them why or heard about any games they've played with/against him. Obviously you have played plenty of games and have your own (valuable) opinion. But I'd love to hear some support from other people who want a change. They should be able to back it up.

[magicpockets]

You are in a unique position here because your opinions are already out here for all to see. I see a lot of other people saying Hamelin needs a fix, and I haven't heard a peep from them why or heard about any games they've played with/against him. Obviously you have played plenty of games and have your own (valuable) opinion. But I'd love to hear some support from other people who want a change. They should be able to back it up.

I more meant it in the sense that it starts people arguing, not that other people shouldn't have a view

To be fair, there's some great threads on this with people who disagree with things I suggest and that could be a good starting point - I'll try and dig it up. In fact, I *think* we did a good job of reaching a consensus about some changes which could really make sense on this. My issue is that once you learn to play against him he's not as bad as people think - more WTF than FFS

[TimeLapse]

Everyone crying out for a Hamelin errata -- how often do you play as/against Hamelin? In those games, how often do you win?

With those answered, what do you feel is broken about Hamelin?

As a Hamelin player I agree that he does not have the over powered feel that Lord Chompy bits had. I don’t think any errata will be that bad since I do not see him as powerful as let’s say levy. Almost everything Hamelin can do Levy can do better.

I think if they change him it will be less about balance and more to make him fit the blight counter mechanic better, I think that is the cool aspect of Hamelin and wish that he worked more like his avatar in utilizing what I thought from the fluff was his main mechanic not this making models insignificant and being immune to attacks.

His obey and his other tricks with his pipes I think are cool and everything he does is good, don't get me wrong he just does not scream errata right away to me, since I play him and know his weakness, I tend not to bring him to tournaments favoring more competitive masters that are quicker and wont time out games. Games that are timed out never truly feel good to me.

I would not mind if they took the cant be targeted mechanic and slimmed it down, making it harder to work if they replaced it with more blight focused skills but that’s just me, most other Hamelin players will most likely yell at me for saying it but Hamelin would me more fun to play if he was less concerned about setting up his shield and more about getting blight counters spread out, And would be a bit more fluffy imho.

[Lucidicide]

My issue is that once you learn to play against him he's not as bad as people think - more WTF than FFS

Having played many games as Hamelin, I agree completely.

[karavak]

I know our group has not played with Hamelin but we have been theorycrafting about how he would be pretty annoying.

But now that I think about it.. I don't think I have seen anyone play Hamelin in the local area or when I was at GenCon last year.

[Lucidicide]

As a Hamelin player I agree that he does not have the over powered feel that Lord Chompy bits had. I don’t think any errata will be that bad since I do not see him as powerful as let’s say levy. Almost everything Hamelin can do Levy can do better.

I think if they change him it will be less about balance and more to make him fit the blight counter mechanic better, I think that is the cool aspect of Hamelin and wish that he worked more like his avatar in utilizing what I thought from the fluff was his main mechanic not this making models insignificant and being immune to attacks.

His obey and his other tricks with his pipes I think are cool and everything he does is good, don't get me wrong he just does not scream errata right away to me, since I play him and know his weakness, I tend not to bring him to tournaments favoring more competitive masters that are quicker and wont time out games. Games that are timed out never truly feel good to me.

I would not mind if they took the cant be targeted mechanic and slimmed it down, making it harder to work if they replaced it with more blight focused skills but that’s just me, most other Hamelin players will most likely yell at me for saying it but Hamelin would me more fun to play if he was less concerned about setting up his shield and more about getting blight counters spread out, And would be a bit more fluffy imho.

Thank you for that. I wouldn't mind an errata that made him a bit more fun to play against, sped up his play, and/or made Blight more useful (or didn't break his avatar). I think that could be a good step. As it stands, Hamelin gets a lot of flack, and I'm glad to hear a Hamelin player say he's not overpowered. I feel similarly. It seems like magicpockets even agrees the biggest Hamelin hurdle is knowledge (which is hard to accumulate because of how frustrating it can be to play against Hamelin).

---------- Post added at 08:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------

I know our group has not played with Hamelin but we have been theorycrafting about how he would be pretty annoying.

But now that I think about it.. I don't think I have seen anyone play Hamelin in the local area or when I was at GenCon last year.

Exactly -- and not to dominate this thread or take this up as my personal cause or anything, but people overall don't seem to be playing Hamelin and yet I feel he's right under LCB (a commonly played Master) for requests for errata. I really want to understand why.

[magicpockets]

It seems like magicpockets even agrees the biggest Hamelin hurdle is knowledge (which is hard to accumulate because of how frustrating it can be to play against Hamelin)

100% - even in my just started thread on how to beat Hamelin I thinks there's enough info to reliably give him trouble. The fact no-one has ever (disclaimer: to my knowledge) suggested die or discard card triggers against his crews is a prime example - that's one of the best ways to take his crew down, but because it's a "different" approach it's overlooked.

Exactly -- and not to dominate this thread or take this up as my personal cause or anything, but people overall don't seem to be playing Hamelin and yet I feel he's right under LCB (a commonly played Master) for requests for errata. I really want to understand why.

1. People first play against Hamelin

2. They lose because they don't understand how to beat him

3. They speak to people or come on the forum where they hear Hamelin is broken

4. It's easier to agree Hamelin is broken rather than workig out how to beat him

5. They also start telling people Hamelin is broken

6. Person who's never seen Hamelin played hear's he's broken

7. That person "learns" Hamelin is broken

8. That person maybe plays against Hamelin

9. They lose because they don't understand and it reaffirms that Hamelin is broken

10. They come back on the forum and confirm he is broken

11. Rinse and repeat

That said, I think he does need toning down - just not totally Cuddling

[Lucidicide]

100% - even in my just started thread on how to beat Hamelin I thinks there's enough info to reliably give him trouble. The fact no-one has ever (disclaimer: to my knowledge) suggested die or discard card triggers against his crews is a prime example - that's one of the best ways to take his crew down, but because it's a "different" approach it's overlooked.

1. People first play against Hamelin

2. They lose because they don't understand how to beat him

3. They speak to people or come on the forum where they hear Hamelin is broken

4. It's easier to agree Hamelin is broken rather than workig out how to beat him

5. They also start telling people Hamelin is broken

6. Person who's never seen Hamelin played hear's he's broken

7. That person "learns" Hamelin is broken

8. That person maybe plays against Hamelin

9. They lose because they don't understand and it reaffirms that Hamelin is broken

10. They come back on the forum and confirm he is broken

11. Rinse and repeat

That said, I think he does need toning down - just not totally nerfing

Haha. A detailed narrative of why. Appreciated on multiple levels.

I have been destroyed by Headshots as Hamelin in the past. And people who refuse to cheat at all, regardless. Hamelin's crew does not have great stats, so if players are willing to trust in averages... they'll come out on top.

Can you give an example of one or two things you'd like to see toned down? I know you've mentioned it elsewhere... but this is a new time and place!

[Kadeton]

I've only played about six games with Hamelin, and I've lost all of them, although they were all against pre-nerf Dreamer.

However, from those games, I'm already getting a sense of how immensely frustrating he could be to play against (his stuff won't die, all your stuff becomes insignificant and Hamelin becomes untouchable), and that's without using the various flavours of cheese like growing free Mature Nephilim or going Rambo with 30 Soulstones.

Here's a suggested change: The Drain Souls action should not be able to be used on Soulless models. The clue's in the name!

[nilus]

So'mer

Did I miss the thread where So'mer got broken?

Honestly instead of toning down more masters I would love to see Wyrd consider fixing some models that aren't worth there points.

Maybe take all the broken they pulled out of the Dreamer and shove it into the Malifaux Child

[Dezzo]

all i remember about Hamelin is falling asleep on the table when one of my friends was playing him.

mind you... i was just spectating the game. but i might fall asleep too if i was the opponent.

BORING.

[Huang Da Wei]

I'm considering shelving Malifaux completely for at least a year until things settle down.

you cant do that, I need my revenge next time you come back to visit

[Dustcrusher]

It's not even a matter of too broken. It's a matter of just plain not fun to play against. As someone who has little playing rep here, I haven't figured out how to beat him with any of my masters, and going through it on the table or in my head feels like an exercise in futility.

The only successful tactic I've seen is "never ever cheat fate," but that's hard for Ressers to do since the non-corporeal ones are pretty much all about the :crows

If I had to pare it down, I'd say "everything but the totem can come back" and "rat reactivation" are the two things that make playing against Hamelin unfun, regardless of my ability.

I'd like a small chance of corpse and scrap counters resisting the Rats' destruction ability, but that's the Resser player in me talking- hell they could make it "flip a card- on a 1, the counter is unaffected, otherwise it is destroyed" and that'd be less ridiculous than what it is now.

Probably not enough to convince anyone, but I figured I'd try. The sad part is that my experience playing against him matches the fluff perfectly.

[Wolfgar]

So Collette will likely take a hit somewhere down the line?

[Morgan Vening]

all i remember about Hamelin is falling asleep on the table when one of my friends was playing him.

mind you... i was just spectating the game. but i might fall asleep too if i was the opponent.

BORING.

This seems to be a bigger issue for me, than the alleged balance issues. Alternating activations are an important part of TTG's, and when one side is doing a lot, with one miniature, or many, the back and forth gets lost, and one side just seems to get bored.

I was reading through the Dreamer threads, on how he did the yo-yo pre-errata, and I just imagined being the opponent as the Dreamer player went through all the steps necessary to pull it off. Same with the Pandora Pacify turbo-move. If all I'm doing for 5-10 minutes at a time is defensive flips, and marking off damage, it's not conducive to an entertaining time.

That's not to say I think interactions and combinations aren't important. I think they are one of the best things about Malifaux. But I'd much rather play a game where I got whupped, but felt like I interacted, than have a close result where my opponent spent a significant portion of the game playing solitaire.

Morgan Vening

[magicpockets]

I'd like a small chance of corpse and scrap counters resisting the Rats' destruction ability, but that's the Resser player in me talking- hell they could make it "flip a card- on a 1, the counter is unaffected, otherwise it is destroyed" and that'd be less ridiculous than what it is now.

Whilst you acknowledge the bias in what you're saying, it is a perfect example of my favourite quote on here -

Dear Wyrd,

Please cuddle scissors.

Rock is just fine.

Kind regards, Paper

[Dustcrusher]

Whilst you acknowledge the bias in what you're saying, it is a perfect example of my favourite quote on here -

Pretty much. I have crepe paper (Seamus) and construction paper (Nicodem), and Hamelin's a pair of steel snips :-P

On a less silly note, I've decided that this will be my last comment on the subject (that is, Hamelin being too powerful/in need of errata) forever, or at least until such time that I feel I have something to offer that won't tempt people into telling me to STFU & L2PN.

I'm going to try other masters- for some reason I do better with Rasputina overall even though I don't think I'm particularly good with her. Still, I really want to show that I can beat him with Nico or Seamus someday, even though that's a tall order.