Non-competetive "tier" lists

[Adanedhel]

Left without tier for now:

Perdita Ortega, C. Hoffman, Dr. Douglas McMourning, Colette DuBois, Lilith, Mother of Monsters

so I now have an idea for 15/20 Masters, not bad for on day on this forum

First a clarification:

within the course of this post tierlist will refer to the system where Masters gain additional restrictions for their crewhiring, in exchange for a small bonus, much like the tierlists pp uses within WarmeHordes, so I'm not trying to rank masters competivly (which should have been clear from the title). And am merely asking wether the proposed tiers would make for fun games, rather then tournament balanced games.

Furthermore I am not one of those guys that knows all crews, as such I will, as of now only give a limited number of Masters, and come back when I have more ideas,(and a better knowledge of the crews in question) or when you guys got ideas yourself, and when those ideas are clearly better then what I could come up with

half done to start, open to suggestions for improvements/ new ideas

guild

Lady Justice

Exorcise

If a crew led by Lady J. includes the exorcist, change Restore Natural Order to:

(2) Restore Natural Order

(CC: 17 / Rst: Wp / Rg: (pulse) 12)

All non-living models within range suffer 2 Wd

Perdita Ortega

Sonnia Criid

A Burning party

If Sonnia Criid only hires models which either have a way of distibuting Burning Counters, or are Sammael Hopkins, or have the term 'Witchling' in their name, Sonnia Criid may be given the manifest option for free.

C. Hoffman

/to do

Resurrectionists

Dr. Douglas McMourning

/to do

Nicodem, the Undertaker (thx Dustcrusher)

As if you could kill what already died

If Nicodem hires no Mercenaries and no Undead models with a cost greater than 7, all Mindless Zombies are immune to abilities that destroy Corpse Counters a as long as they are within 12" of Nicodem, the Undertaker

Seamus, the Mad Hatter

Fear Incarnate

If a crew led by this model includes at least 3 Terrifying models, all Terrifying Models in this crew gain Anathema (see Avatar of Dread (Seamus, the Mad Hatter) , Avatar of Insanity (Pandora), and Avatar of Imagination(The Dreamer) for the specifics)

Kirai Ankoku

/to do

Arcanists

Marcus

The Beast Within

If Marcus' crew selection consists of only models having the Beast characteristic Marcus may choose each turn either to autosucceed Wild Heart by the minimum CC (10 tomes) without the need of performing a (0) action (this still must only be chosen during Marcus' activation), or receive + /tome on his Ca for this activation

Ramos

Surrounded by the Machine

If Ramos' crew selection for the game consist for at least 75% of the SS expended to hire crew rather then add to his starting SS pool out of constructs with the Arachnid ability, and he hires the Brass Arachnid, he gains a Tome to his cast while casting Construct Spider, and Electrical Creation

Rasputina

Frozen Landscape

If all models in a crew led by Rasputina have the Frozen Heart ability, extend the Range for the purposes of Ice Mirror to 9"

Colette Du Bois

/to do

Neverborn

Lilith, Mother of Monsters

/to do

Pandora (thx to msgfree)

Pandora - Let not my Sorrows Die

If Pandora only hires minions with just the Woe characteristic, she may take 1 Sorrow for no additional cost.

(models w/ only the Woe characteristic = no twins)

Zoraida, the Hag

Mother of the bayou

If Zoraida's crew when hired consist entirely of gremlins, pigs, Silurids, brood mothers and

gupps, Zoraida may include a Bayou Gremlin free for every 2 models hired which have the gremlin characteristic. (I had seen this one suggested before, and thought to include it on the list, if this was your idea, post here and I'll give you the due credit)

Dreamer,

my friends are cute and important

If a crew with the Dreamer included hires at least one Teddy, Insignificant non-totem Nightmares gain significant. (in case you were wondering, yep, I made this because of the number of people complaining about alps being made insignificant)

Outcast

Leveticus, Steampunk Necromancer

Creations of his own

While Leveticus only hires Outcast models, friendly Steam Punk Abominations gain significant.

Som'er teeth Jones (thx to Spiku, mistercactus)

Where the big ones lead

If Som'ers crew contains no Special Forces (Kin), friendly Warpigs gain Hard To Kill, and Slow To Die

Viktoria

If noone helps you, the reward is your own

When Viktorias' crew does not have any models of the Freikops, she gains Cache: 3

Hamelin, the Plagued

Mister Caretaker

If a crew led by Hamelin the Plagued was hired with only The Stolen, Obedient Wretch, Baby Kade, Candy, Crooligans, Nix, Canine Remains and Guild Hounds all forementioned models gain:

(0) Orphaned

This model gains Harmless

Edited March 7, 2012 by Adanedhel

[Orboros]

I think that some of those are way to strong even for for "casual" games. I find that ideas like yours are indeed interesting but even on a small scale nearly impossible to balance. Sure its for the purpose of spicing things up in a fun creative way but i wont consider rasputina sniping your face of from half across the board or your whole crew immune to terrifying running from the board in fear ^^

Note that i just give you feedback i don't want to sound mean.

[Math Mathonwy]

I like all of them and don't think that they are more unbalanced than the current state of affairs. They force you to take sub-optimal crews but reward you for doing so. And yes, some of the rewards are indeed quite handsome, but they won't make Master as good as optimally built Dreamer or Kirai, so the balance might shift a bit but wouldn't got into extremes that are already part of the game.

Good job!

[msgfree]

I like all of them and don't think that they are more unbalanced than the current state of affairs. They force you to take sub-optimal crews but reward you for doing so. And yes, some of the rewards are indeed quite handsome, but they won't make Master as good as optimally built Dreamer or Kirai, so the balance might shift a bit but wouldn't got into extremes that are already part of the game.

Good job!

I agree 100%

There are some good ideas that would be fun for a one-off event, we just need to finish the list.

I like the concept, keep it up!

[Adanedhel]

Thanks for the feedback,

Orboros you didn't come across as mean, I was asking for feedback, otherwise there would be very few point in posting here, what would you suggest to keep Rasputina's, and Seamus' reward in check?

Math Mahony: that's the point, take suboptimal choices that are very great from a fluff point of view, and get a slight boost from it

And thanks for the kind words msgfree, to be honest, it started from someone posting the gremlin idea for zoraida, and I thought to try find more, still thinking about others at this moment

Edited March 7, 2012 by Adanedhel
ninjas

[Spiku]

So this is themelist rather than tier list?

[Adanedhel]

The name comes from Privateer Press, who hae a similar design on their casters

[Spiku]

Do they say tier list, or would they say like; Justice tier list, or A.Som'er tier list?

[msgfree]

Off the top of my head:

Pandora - Let not my Sorrows Die

If Pandora only hires minions with just the Woe characteristic, she may take 1 Sorrow for no additional cost.

(models w/ only the Woe characteristic = no twins)

[ukrocky]

I actually love threads like this, good job

I feel some of the hiring restrictions need to be a bit stricter though (I know that some of my trollblood casters will NEVER see there tier lists!).

That, or have stepped tiers much like H/WM (So eg, Marcus gets tier 1 if he takes 3 beasts, tier 2 if he takes other stuff etc.)

[Adanedhel]

UKRocky, I fear that stepped tiers would be the part where it becomes to unbalanced, but I can see some restrictions becoming stricter, like Seamus' or Justices, Dreamer should be fine though I think, yes only Teddy needs to be included, but the only advantage as of now would be having another suboptimal choice being playable again, the Alps

Which where the ones you considered the most in need of a strickter tier?

(and yes Spiku, it's usually done als for example The Harbinger of Menoths tier, rather then Casters tier, not having English as a native tongue, makes subtle differences like these could be rather unnoticeable )

[Fetid Strumpet]

I sort of like the idea of this in strengthening "theme" lists. The fluff and character of certain masters just lead to a desire bringing certain lists. Seamus is a prime example, bringing a Belle Centric list is something almost all players who pick up Seamus want to do. Seamus players tend to want to bring the CCK, but doing this leads to quite weak lists, even in casual play. Making bringing a theme list a stronger option would help to bring lists that their customers want to bring, and that matches the very strong fluff of the game is something I think Wyrd could potentially look into. It also could give expansion options without needing to create new masters, but different themes for different masters could be interesting.

[ukrocky]

Like buying Marcus then realising all the beasts are terrible and just rocking with Arcanist minions and Mercs

[Adanedhel]

ukrocky, you're being sarcastic about all beast being terrible right?

I can't help but think that Silurids, Shikome's and Lawyers are awesome, and am dabbling in starting Marcus and Som'er since after Pandora, Hamelin and Leveticus people say I don't play it if it isn't broken

[Spiku]

Som'er is broken.

[Adanedhel]

Really? At my club they've been calling him the weakest master

[mistercactus]

Somer: If warpig is included in the crew, all pigs gain significant?

[Adanedhel]

Actually mistercactus, that's quite a cool idea

I'll include it right away

[Spiku]

I really don't like that idea. Pigs have a method to gain significant as it is, and they are hideously undercosted for a significant model that has almost 94" worth of movement with a Som'er crew =X

Why not have a non-LaCroix: Warpigs gain slow to die and hard to kill ;3

[Fetid Strumpet]

Could be interesting to utilize the boxed sets for this as well. As in perhaps, if we explore the idea of different benefits in the future, depending on crew build, perhaps one of them could be activated if you bring all the models in the master's released boxed set.

As an example perhaps one of McMorning's could give a benefit if he brings two Nurses, a Flesh Construct, and Sebastian, he could bring more, but those models would need to be in the initial crew.

Just an idea to consider.

[Adanedhel]

After having played a tournament where boxes (at least 15SS out of them) and having to do such one again, I'm pretty much on the fence. The problem with the concept is that outside of Hoffman, the book 2 Masters are stronger, and have a very synergizing crew box, you don't want to boost Dreamer Stitcheds, and Hamelins box is a very good on to include, whereas Doug and Marcus suffer, especcially the earlier boxes, and the cases like Levi who has mostly his summoning equipment in the box would suffer greatly while Dreamer, Hamelin, Kirai en Colette would be boosted harder then they already are I believe

[Dustcrusher]

Nicodem Level 1: If Nicodem hires no Mercenaries and no Undead models with a cost greater than 7, all Mindless Zombies are immune to abilities that destroy Corpse Counters and gain Hard to Kill (both may be too much) as long as they are within 12".

In exchange for playing him fluffy, his Mindless Zombies are more durable.

Nicodem Level 2: Same except reduce the Undead models' max cost to 5- Mindless Zombies within 12" of Nicodem count as friendly for the purpose of the Bolster Undead ability.

Yes, no, maybe?

[mistercactus]

You really think it'd be OP?

I admit that I don't play gremlins, though they are my most frequent opponents.

I thought it gave a good reason to take a warpig (beyond the awesome model), since the general consensus seems to be that it isn't an optimal choice, plus gave gremlin players another style of play.

Presumably the opponent would be gaining benefits from there crew selection too. I don't think these ideas are meant to be taken too seriously, just for an occasional fun game.

Maybe warpig and hog whisperer need to be taken to gain the bonus?

[Adanedhel]

Nicodem Level 1: If Nicodem hires no Mercenaries and no Undead models with a cost greater than 7, all Mindless Zombies are immune to abilities that destroy Corpse Counters and gain Hard to Kill (both may be too much) as long as they are within 12".

In exchange for playing him fluffy, his Mindless Zombies are more durable.

Nicodem Level 2: Same except reduce the Undead models' max cost to 5- Mindless Zombies within 12" of Nicodem count as friendly for the purpose of the Bolster Undead ability.

Yes, no, maybe?

At this moment level 1 is all I'm looking for, but if we manage to find enough ideas a level 2 would be perfectly fine, would think myself the protection vs Counterdestroyers is what matters most for Nicodem (though Reanimator should be extempted)

I'll for now take that one as proposal,

Spiku how do you get the 94" movement, I'd like to learn the trick, or is it just a Sooey! chain?

[Spiku]

Yeah, I really think significant piglets would be over powered. They are insignificant precisely because they can be pulled 10" at a time by Sooey! models. Coupled with the ability to give pigs reactivate, and reckless, they would be a massive terror. It is a terrible idea.