Gollum528 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 There is a serious issue with balance in brawls in this game. There are several horrible combinations the neverborn can do that basically make it so you can only compete against it with a neverborn crew. The specific combination the op was talking about was using Pandora's totem to make it so Dreamer/Collodi couldn't activate first turn until after your opponent's crew has activated then dropping his entire crew on them with full activations. I have played against other neverborn combinations that it is basically impossible to win against. I'm actually seeing that a well played chompy crew is nearly impossible to win against in general. So, I thinkmsomething should be done to adjust the balance issue in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Saying that one of you had McMourning/Kirai which is also fairly good pair.. Not as bad as Nicodem/Kirai but close. I've always wanted to run a tournament where each player took 25-30ss crew. They were then randomly paired with other tournament players so each game was a double (Each Crew having their own deck, Schemes and a shared Strat). You would then do some mad maths to work out the position of players ( [individual Schemes + Strat] - [Average Schemes + Strat of the opponents] each round,).. Then going into the second round the top player would be paired with the bottom player, 2nd top with the 2nd lowest etc... So each round the pairings would change.. The overall winner would be the person who managed to play best with his team mate each game (top combined score for each round). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knoerzer Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 @Gollum528 That is the exact crew i faced. He played Dreamer and Pandora and Collodi and then he didn't activate until I activated all of mine. Now on the way home I did see a way I could have won since we were playing a Destroy the Evidence, or which ever has a neutral token in the center of the table. I was playing gremlins, so I had somer and two GM's. So the way I could have won was, activate a gremlin, then he makes me activate all mine, and then I take my war pig and get as close to the token as possible, then the hog whisper goes out and reactivates the war pig, the war pig then picks up the token giving me 1 or 2 VP and then I activate the GM's for the rest of the entire game. NOW I know this would have been a jerk move, and thats why I never considered it, but since that was an unfair fight, looking back it might have given me at least one win that night... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 like somebody said on here, I would like to see Wyrd start helping some of the other factions with figures or stats that can hurt the neverborn... What types of things do you mean here? There are models in the game that currently work very well vs. NB by exploiting the weaknesses built into the faction. There are others (the exorcist comes to mind) that specifically target characteristics that only appear in specific crews. I would love to hear opinions on what you consider "figures or stats that can hurt NB". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 What types of things do you mean here? There are models in the game that currently work very well vs. NB by exploiting the weaknesses built into the faction. There are others (the exorcist comes to mind) that specifically target characteristics that only appear in specific crews. I would love to hear opinions on what you consider "figures or stats that can hurt NB". I'd love to hear what weaknesses you think are built into the faction. Not to disagree with you, but I think it's an interesting thing to discuss. I listened to the Gamer's Lounge, and one of your guests (don't remember which one -- I think magicpockets) mentioned that Neverborn can really do a variety of different things. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be hard pressed to come up with a Neverborn weakness, but not hard pressed to come up with Neverborn Master weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wierdvortex Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've always wanted to run a tournament where each player took 25-30ss crew. They were then randomly paired with other tournament players so each game was a double (Each Crew having their own deck, Schemes and a shared Strat). You would then do some mad maths to work out the position of players ( [individual Schemes + Strat] - [Average Schemes + Strat of the opponents] each round,).. Then going into the second round the top player would be paired with the bottom player, 2nd top with the 2nd lowest etc... So each round the pairings would change.. The overall winner would be the person who managed to play best with his team mate each game (top combined score for each round). That sounds like it would make an interesting tournament. I couldn't say I understand all the maths behind it, but the overall idea sounds good and the balence could work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 @Lucidicide I agree with you, I certainly mispoke. I think with the arrival of book 3 the factions have really balanced out from the initial weaknesses that some factions have. Looking across factions, there are some "general" characteristics that could be seen as weaknesses. Guild - lack of fast(er) models Neverborn - lack of range, lack of magic weapons Outcasts - Incredibly specialized models, lack of SS Cache I am not as familiar with Ressers and Arcanists to really pick out general weaknesses as I am very specific on the Resser and Arcanist crews I play. With that said, there have been models added to each faction across the 3 books that really mitigate their "weaknesses". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knoerzer Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think you both make a valid point and not trying to sound like the game is bad just because of the NB, but I am saying that I don't want to go to a competitive tourny where I am going to be facing NB all the time. When I first started playign a year ago, I started out as Guild, and still play them from time to time, but I have noticed that there are a lot more advantages against the guild like Tuco and Lasruus*. So my ideas would include making another character that is a NB killing tank like Lasruus. (sorry for the wrong spelling of his name, but I am at college and don't have my book) I do know that the exorcist was made to hurt NB, but i havent played him that much because I don't really know how he works but I have heard others say that he is useful when everything goes right. so I just feel that a new character needs to be made to fight NB, maybe made an Outcast so everyone can hire him and have a fighting chance agianst the NB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Exorcist hurts Ressers far more than NB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Exorcist hurts Ressers far more than NB. I agree, although I do not believe its overly drastic as there are only three reasons for that. First, Ressers have the preponderance of H2W models in the game making the symbol of Office impact them more than other factions. Second, Ressers include both Undead and Spirits, while other factions only get hit (generally) with 1 aspect (Nightmare, Spirit, Soulless). Third, his Fear not Death only triggers vs undead, which makes him damn near invulnerable to being lured by a Belle (resulting in a defending WP of 10 vs a Belle's lure). The Exorcist would have as drastic of an impact on a Spirit or H2W model in other factions as well. I think its the concentration of undead AND spirits in Ressers that makes him such an anti-resser model. Most of his abilities target not only Ressers but Nightmares (Dreamer) and Soulless (Levi/Hamelin) just as hard. I am unsure how you would build a similar model to impact ALL Neverborn. Neverborn include a fair range of characteristics within their faction with 3 different ones that are unique. If you target living models (which terrifying already does), then it also impacts Outcasts and Guild, along with possibly half of Arcanists. The Exorcist going after Undead, Spirits AND Soulless and Nightmares is fairly fluffy and somewhat historically logical. What is the fluff build-up for something that specifically targets Nightmares, Woes, and Nephilim? Edited February 23, 2012 by nix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knoerzer Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I would recommend making a character that is strong against them all, kinda like the gunsmith, where they have different ammo, but for NB types like Nightmare, or Woe, and then make them Outcast so people can hire them, but also give them some stats where they are still useful in scraps that are not against NB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually, the other problem with Brawls that they're not balanced. This is very true (more so in High SS games). The game was intended as a small skirmish level game (1 Master, 25-35 SS tops) not an army game. When players are allowed to bring two Masters and everything and the kitchen sink, balance is something that is virtually immpossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knoerzer Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I agree, I hope Wyrd will only make tournys 30-35 point scraps and leave the big brawls to those who wish to play them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I agree, I hope Wyrd will only make tournys 30-35 point scraps and leave the big brawls to those who wish to play them. Wyrd has generally take then approach to let the local Henchman go with what his/her local meta wants. The only official tournaments run directly by Wyrd happen at Gencon. Everything else is volunteer TO ran. It seems like 30 to 35 stone scraps are the norm for tournaments in most places though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've always wanted to run a tournament where each player took 25-30ss crew. They were then randomly paired with other tournament players so each game was a double (Each Crew having their own deck, Schemes and a shared Strat). You would then do some mad maths to work out the position of players ( [individual Schemes + Strat] - [Average Schemes + Strat of the opponents] each round,).. Then going into the second round the top player would be paired with the bottom player, 2nd top with the 2nd lowest etc... So each round the pairings would change.. The overall winner would be the person who managed to play best with his team mate each game (top combined score for each round). Sounds interesting. Maybe you could find someone who could knock up a quick web app to do all those fancy calculations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Have you folks considered bringing a guild lawyer or two with you? Its hard for Collidi to function if he is unfriendly to his puppets. Or the daydreams to release friendly nightmares like chompy if they are "unfriendly" While there are imbalances between certain match ups that is a good thing overall even if it is frustrating at times. I think it comes down a bit more to the fact that some models aren't released and in public play yet. Most tourney's I've attended recently don't allow unreleased models in play so that gives other crews with models that are released (and balanced by other unreleased models) a leg up. As for brawls there are some very very very destructive and powerful combinations. A friend and I were discussing some recently when we came to the realization that Hoffman and Ramos could dish out 10 "re-activates" a turn fairly easily (needing a non suited 11 for the Brass Arachnid and as low as a non suited 6 for Hoffman.) Edited February 24, 2012 by Marcalla Removed double post info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoeRender Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well I am just here to say that never born are over powered while yes they can be beat and there are things you can do to stop them , they need you to play almost perfect with very few errors . Its a problem when no matter where I go to play ( I have played around the USA ) everyone has the same problem . I go too Chicago people cringe at never born , i play in NYC people cringe at never born , I play in new Jersey same thing . People visit our club from other places they cringe at never born . Yes I say over time with good skill it becomes less of a problem , but I have seen a lot of players get turned off by the game because of the fact . Players leave before giving the game a fair shot because of this imbalance . I am not whining but this is just what I have seen . given that il take on never born any day with my guild without the help of the new exorcist ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I feel sad not having deliver a message with my pigapult =( Why not? Has pigapult been changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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