Omenbringer Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 When people say a char or faction is broken It makes me think they are bad at the game and cant figure how to handle certain situations. Yes masters can be more powerful than others but that is in every game you play. Not just tabletop games either. They just need to buck up and get better. A lot of times this may be the case, however it isn't always. Hamelin, The Dreamer, the lilith "filth" list and several others have all had fixes applied after "broken" interactions were mentioned and confirmed by both new and old players. Many very knowledgeable and experienced players contributed to fixing those models and several of them are/were players of those models. A quick search will show you it was several notable Hamelin players that began the threads calling for a fix for him, not new players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelante Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Gamers like nothing more than a good winge, claims of brokenness should always been viewed with a critical eye and a hefty bag of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 They have been. Which is why things have/are changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) I guess its a positive sign of the growing popularity of the game that threads like this get revived and created,etc. Hopefully it does not become as much the norm as it seems to be in the other larger game systems. Wyrd is darned if they do and darned if they don't. If they take the GW policy, then you have a joke army like the necrons that became comically bad in 5th addition without house-rule help. (We used Dice Like Thunder mods and gave them stubborn and ditched phase out. ) If they listen carefully and take steps like changing "Bury" to heal a very real problem with the Dreamer/LCB, then they are "changing the game all the time". For what its worth, Wyrd is making the right choices IMO. Edited June 25, 2012 by PierceSternum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 I think the very essence of 'Broken' is subjective, because there's no single and absolute definition. A lot of people think Hamelin is broken if for nothing other than the many interactions in which rulings would be left ambiguous, whereas you have others such as myself who would consider a model's powerlevel on a relative scale to other models as the determining factor of broken, which many other people would equally argue for some other reason. I think people who take the suggestion of another person at whole value and disregard the game as a whole entirely are very unintuitive and more than likely weren't interested in the game to begin with, and were just using that as an excuse instead of hurting anyone's feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 I think the term broken has replaced "wow, that model is really good!" in some aspects. When they first released Jack Daw, my local community was in an up roar about his rules, declaring him as "broken". In reality, he is just a really good model, and I think we often jump the gun when we see new things like that. In our ever long quest to find a game that is perfectly balanced, we will always encounter imbalance, especially as a game evolves. For me, if all factions/armies were completely balanced, no system would be fun. The fun is learning how to deal with something that is "hard-nuts". I think broken is broken, only because we tend to over use it when we perceive something to be really, really good. Life isn't fair and neither should gaming. The poor sap who can't enjoy the delicious taste of a Reeses cup because he can't eat peanuts due to an allergy, does he say his allergy is "broken"? No, he eats something else. So lets move on and accept imbalance and stop complaining the so called "Broken". You know that Jack Daw is banned from most tournaments, right? Why is that? Hmmmmmm....... Also, what are you talking about with the allergy? No, the allergy is not broken, but the immune system that cannot process the nut IS broken, so good job on arguing FOR the game being broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBarlekamp Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Jack Daw is banned from tournaments for one reason only, and that is the extra VP rules he has. He is nasty but not even remotely broken. He is a 9 - 10 pt model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 I think good old jack gets banned because of his VP mechanic. I know a couple tournaments used to ban him because people didn't know about at rule and a tie becomes a loss and could have been a win had they known that. I don't think he is a broken model I just think he's a pain to deal with but I can reliably drain my opponents hand by targeting him, no one wants to lose a (9?) SS model AND a VP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 I did not realize that Jack was still banned from tournaments. I thought that went away last year when the RM was released and VP were capped at 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Take Calmdown, so many people attack him and say he only wins because he plays broken crews (most recently, "He's only winning with Rezzers because he takes Von Schill") - I mean WTF? Very few acknowledge the general skill at Malifaux that goes into his games and the insight it takes to use a crew to the level where you're opponents cry "broken". Truth is, I'd bet he'd beat most people on here with a crew drawn out of a hat. .... Taking Von Schill in a crew is like putting bumpers in a bowling lane. Your score may get better and you will win games but you are still garbage. Admit you take him to win games....... I take that back: admit to yourself that you take him so you can win games - we already know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bosco, can you please refrain from making attacks like that? I find it detrimental to the thread and topic at hand, game balance issues. Von Schill is known to be a very efficient model. However at 10SS to any non outcast crew he accounts for about 1/3 of the army in a 35ss game. Yes he is annoying, yes he is good, no he is not unstoppable and no he is not taken "just to win" also if you are not playing to win, why not set that up with your opponent before the game starts so you can both agree to bring casual and fluffy lists (raspy with ice golems, zoraida with a bad juju)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchwork Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Taking Von Schill in a crew is like putting bumpers in a bowling lane. I'm going to make a t-shirt with that on it. Edited June 25, 2012 by Patchwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 You know that Jack Daw is banned from most tournaments, right? Why is that? Hmmmmmm....... I had never heard of Jack Daw being banned at any tournament before your post. That is interesting. ---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ---------- Taking Von Schill in a crew is like putting bumpers in a bowling lane. Your score may get better and you will win games but you are still garbage. Admit you take him to win games....... I take that back: admit to yourself that you take him so you can win games - we already know. I dislike Von Schill primarily because he is the "answer" for so many rezzers and I dislike that. I have hopes that as Molly fleshes out with more horrors, that Von Schill-mania dies down. That having been said, Bosco, I find it difficult to see an upside to your post. It feels very much like you just want to pick a fight with people that choose to use a model they purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bosco, can you please refrain from making attacks like that? I find it detrimental to the thread and topic at hand, game balance issues. Von Schill is known to be a very efficient model. However at 10SS to any non outcast crew he accounts for about 1/3 of the army in a 35ss game. Yes he is annoying, yes he is good, no he is not unstoppable and no he is not taken "just to win" also if you are not playing to win, why not set that up with your opponent before the game starts so you can both agree to bring casual and fluffy lists (raspy with ice golems, zoraida with a bad juju)? Just responding to the attack the poster was making against everyone who is actually talking about game balance. They wanted to derail the conversation by saying it is the player's fault for any issues they may have. Blaming the victim is not the way to fix things. And, yes, taking Von Schill in a Resser crew is garbage and it points to balancing issues because if you have to go outside your Faction and pull in a Merc who sticks out like fly in the soup and pay that many SS to get him, that means he is THAT good and there is no one in the Faction that compares. When you dip into other crews to compete OR play "fluff" just as a powderpuff match and not to win, then there is a problem with the balance. No disrespect to anyone but I will state the facts. Also, getting back to the balance issue, you said, " no, they do not take him to win." What is your evidence of this? Why else spend 1/3 of your SS to get him? Again, there is nothing wrong with taking him in order to ensure victory. The conversation is on the game, not the players. Players who want to win will exploit the system and that is why we are talking about the various points of exploitation. Saying it does not exist is naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Broke, Broke ... broken ... set ablaze ... There ya go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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