Dreamer grief?

[Cthulhurising]

So I just picked up the Dreamer to run in the next story campaign thats going on in a week or so. I like the models, love how Coppelius, LCB and the Alps look in particular. I have Stitched laying around from Collodi so I figured it was a nice fit right? I mean, Pandora's nifty, and Lilith seems to... easy to play.

Well, the people I play with are all pretty easy going and really cool. Its not a very competitive story campaign, which helps.

I mean... LCB is an amazing model. The Alps are... cute to me. And Coppelius brings up so many wicked monsters to mind it makes me happy. I love the story for the twins, and to me, the Hooded Rider fits in best with the Dreamer. And I get why people complain about him so much, and it turned me away from the Dreamer for a long time.

So my question, How many of you Dreamer players picked up the Dreamer cause he's awesome. Not because of what his abilities do. How many of you are annoyed that he gets so much grief? I almost feel bad playing him... then again, I felt worse as Z/Collodi. I felt like it was an auto "I Win" button. I never lost a game. :/ So I wanted something that took a little more thinking...

[Sybaris]

Until they either revise the rules or publish content that relinquish the Dreamer to the backstage (although that would only put the grief flag to other models), the current game has its issues.

For friendly games i am sure you can arrange things with your mates. House rules are also an option.

[nix]

I picked up Dreamer because I loved his fluff and the Nightmare Chompy model. I even went so far as having a custom sculpt done of my dreamer model, as I felt he was more Max from Where the Wild Things are:

My "Money is where my mouth is" so to speak. I think he is great, rules aside.

[dsmiles]

As do I. I even picked up "Sarah" from Hasslefree and an "Eldritch Demon" from Reaper to fill out my Lovecraft-themed crew. I use them as Dreamer and Chompy in casual games.

[karn987]

Same here. I played this guy for his fluff and style long before the abuses surfaced. Even then, I consistently refuse to abuse the crew and play him as a casual/fun crew. Heck I didn't care what he did once I say Nightmare LCB and his crew, I just had to have him for his theme. Especially the Stitched Togethers, Oogie Boogie ftw any day.

It's unfortunate what happened with him, but he's had several of his teath blunted already. It's also well within reason to think that something will be done to help even him out that last little bit. If nothing else, just don't use his abuses and play with integrity. People will hopefully realize this and if not, *shrugs* not worth your time in my opinion. Some people just always have to have something to bitch about.

As an example, a frequent opponent of mine has never been bothered by the Dreamer's abuses for a simple reason... I didn't use them *shrugs*. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. So I wouldn't feel bad for playing him if your goal is to play for fun and thus bring a fun list rather then pushing his broken and abusable points. If that still bothers you, then come up with a House rule.

The point is to enjoy yourself. Find what makes it enjoyable for you and your group and stick to it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by karn987

[Cthulhurising]

What is considered an abuse exactly? I was happy they cuddled alps a little bit. But other then taking particularly tough schemes and the like, I can't think of much else to do to tone him down. But I'm not very experianced with him yet. ><

And that model is beautiful Nix! Where The Wild Things Are was always my favorite book as a kid! I never caught the similiarities though... neat! All that came to mind for me is lovecraft or Sully and the kid from Monsters Inc :/ Haha.

Suppose it'd work to have a really fluffy and cute LCB to help?

Really like the idea of a red riding hood kinda crew too.. makes no sense, but i like wolves and Delphyne and Ekhis from Sodapop Mini's look really good imo. ^^

Edited February 13, 2012 by Cthulhurising

[magicpockets]

Chompy sniping is abuse. To be fair that's about it, he's just very good at a lot of strategies

[Sybaris]

What if only 1 daydream was allowed?

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair that's about it, he's just very good at a lot of strategies

And I think right there is one of the oddities in Malifaux that over time has really started to bug me. If Malifaux is a game that is designed around Faction Vs. Faction balance, that is, that you will hire your Master and crew based on what strategy your faction is attempting to accomplish it makes very little sense to me to have any masters that are really good at everything.

Perhaps it is a little too dualistic, but I feel that if you make Masters like Kirai, the Dreamer, and perhaps Hamelin, that are very good at everything, then the other masters should be balanced against each other for the ability to do everything, and not on a faction basis. What good does it do to say you can be competitive with Ressers if what that really means is that you can be competitive with Kirai.

I also disagree that just agreeing not to use a Master to their full abilities is an appropriate fix. If a Master is capable of doing something, and you choose not to do it solely based on the fact that it is abusive, then you are basically letting the opponent win, or at least not playing to the full of your abilities, which at least to me feels like the same thing.

Now there are all sorts of situations where you might not go all out in an attempt to win, new players, demo games and so on, but if a valid ability exists in game, then you should in no way feel guilty for taking advantage of it. If I use Seamus' gun to one shot a minion I don't feel guilty about it, because it is one of the things Seamus can do, Likewise if I run a cross board strike and retreat with Chompy should I feel guilty because that is what the master was designed to do?

If a combination of rules is truly abusive then the rules that allow it should either not have been allowed, or should be changed in some way to prevent the abuse from occuring. I don't see what the difference is between not taking advantage of a combination of abilities, and giving your opponent 5 free SS for example.

This is just my personal opinion.

[Cthulhurising]

Lol, I like that idea Fetid. It does make sense, and I really would like to see the Dreamer in combat animated. Think how cool it'd be to see the nightmares appear and vanish in real time...

But yeah. The closet I can find is playing the Dreamer for a theme, and pick the tougher schemes. That way you have to work to your full potential. and its fun!

Although you can't really not theme a nightmare list... hrm..

[Calmdown]

Just dont run daydreams and chompy is a lot less aggravating and boring to play against.

[Lucidicide]

Or run the Dreamer but refuse to use LCB until the Dreamer is dead.

I have to agree that simply not playing the 'abuse' is not an answer to any issue.

[Sybaris]

There should be a rule revision for the Dreamer, unless such power is intended for the game. There's just too much posts on the same topic, denoting that something is -wrong- with the way it works.

At least i'd like to know if Wyrd intends to do something about it or just let it Rot (:crows:crows)

[micahwc]

I bought him specifically so I could abuse him as much as possible. I had the other three Neverborn masters already and most of the faction's minions. I play against people who play in tournaments from time to time. I got him because everyone says he is broken, and hypothetically I could give my friends practice before they get to tournaments. Also, between the three of us we have about 85% of the models in the game.

It's one thing to read the rules about a powerful master, it's quite another to experience facing it.

[Hatchethead]

I would put the onus less on "Dreamer Grief" and more on "Book 2 Grief". Kirai, Hamelin, Dreamer, Collette, they all have the reputation of being more than a little bent. The only faction that didn't benefit from the Book 2 power shift is Guild (though Hoffman is fun and cool, he doesn't rank). The majority of Book 2 masters overshadow most of their Book 1 counterparts in terms of overall utility, speed, lethality and value per soulstone (minion-wise).

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and only my opinion.

But meh. I don't want to turn this into "Another One of Those Threads". You either decide to play Chompy in all his glory or you don't. Some opponents will give you grief, some will enjoy the challenge.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Hatchethead

[Ebonstar]

I'll be picking him up sometime soon, but I want to run a fun list just to show people what crazy movement tricks he is capable of. I already have 4 night terrors, probably picking up 2 more, and some insidious madness, Teddy, and Coppelius. I don't intend to bury the NT's nor Insidious Madness because I think those are more hilarious to fling about the table on their own, and Teddy and Copp make for a solid hit squad that doesn't just sit on you, it needs to pick its fights better.

[fishtank]

I love the Fluff, but hate the stock "Power" models (twins, Stitched) because they really are no fun to play against.

The REAL problem I see with Chompy - and I admit my experience is limited as my main opponent has been on a Raspy kick lately, and when he played Dreamer it wasn't much fun -is the Bury mechanic. Fix that, and a bunch of the problems with Dreamer go away.

My thought is to make models that are unburied Slow until the End resolve effects phase (or whatever it's called. Rubbish at names, don't have my rulebook. When Sonnia's Inferno goes off etc.). Also, remove non-counter effects from play when buried (no more priming models first turn and dumping a bunch of defensive stanced Stitched on your opponent's defenceless crew).

I LOVE the Dreamer's fluff, and would kinda like to pick up a crew. How's this list?

Dreamer + 6 Cache

* 3 Daydreams

Coppelius

Teddy

Insidious Madness

2 Night Terrors

That's 35 stones, and everything is still a Nightmare, as it should be with Dreamer.

(I'd remove Nightmare from the twins as well fwiw).

[Sarsnick]

I love the Fluff, but hate the stock "Power" models (twins, Stitched) because they really are no fun to play against.

The REAL problem I see with Chompy - and I admit my experience is limited as my main opponent has been on a Raspy kick lately, and when he played Dreamer it wasn't much fun -is the Bury mechanic. Fix that, and a bunch of the problems with Dreamer go away.

My thought is to make models that are unburied Slow until the End resolve effects phase (or whatever it's called. Rubbish at names, don't have my rulebook. When Sonnia's Inferno goes off etc.). Also, remove non-counter effects from play when buried (no more priming models first turn and dumping a bunch of defensive stanced Stitched on your opponent's defenceless crew).

I LOVE the Dreamer's fluff, and would kinda like to pick up a crew. How's this list?

Dreamer + 6 Cache

* 3 Daydreams

Coppelius

Teddy

Insidious Madness

2 Night Terrors

That's 35 stones, and everything is still a Nightmare, as it should be with Dreamer.

(I'd remove Nightmare from the twins as well fwiw).

It's also kind of hilarious I view Rasputina as just as trolly. Machine gun down your life and stick to that terrain and explosions in your face when you kill someone.

[poulpox]

I think people like to scare each other on forums, and cry wolf where there's none to be seen. A challenge is often translated as "overpowered", and individuals who never played with or against a particular crew have their opinion all made up from other peeps' negative experiences.

I think people are influenced too much by the opinion of others, and give up in the face of adversity. I play Dreamer coz I love the fluff and playstyle. Will I think it unfair to play against Dreamer? Not the least. I will try again and again to find the right way to tackle that crew played by this or that player (who will play it differently from another player), that's the beauty of gaming to me.

Will LCB kill some models in the game? Of course he will. Will that win him the game? Not necessarily.

I love my Dreamer crew!