Kirai, Spirit Anchor and Placing.

[Believe]

Now, I'm actually reasonably sure that the intent behind Spirit Anchor is to give you new seishins, but the use of "place" confuses me.

Place moves things, sometimes it moves things that are not on the board onto the board, like killjoy and bete noir, but they're things you've paid the ss for already, they just don't deploy normally.

So the rule, for the uninitiated, reads like you can place one of the seishins you already have in B2B with Kirai, tell me why I'm wrong, please?

[karavak]

To me the context goes something like this:A Living or Undead Model that is killed within range of Kirai, has it's soul ripped from its body and shackled to Kirai creating a new Seishin under her control.Has Malifaux really degraded into the nitpicking found in Warhammer?

I would associate it with Warmachine more than Warhammer but it unfortunately does seem to be heading that way. And it's seems to be expected as tournaments and more competitiveness play grows. Kind of like growing pains.

[Wolfgar]

Fraid not. "In the game" and "In play" are defined quite early in the Rules Manual.

Broadly:

In play = on the board

In the game = on the board or buried

What it says is that models that are killed or sacrificed are removed from the game. Being in or out the game does not have a specific definition beyond that and the obvious.

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

To me the context goes something like this:A Living or Undead Model that is killed within range of Kirai, has it's soul ripped from its body and shackled to Kirai creating a new Seishin under her control.Has Malifaux really degraded into the nitpicking found in Warhammer?

Or a model dies and and spirits already in existence are attracted by it, or sense death and swarm to protect their mistress.

I apologize if this seems like a nitpick, but the rule by itself is vague and probably needs to changed to make it's intention clearer; simply adding the word "new" would make the whole issue vanish.

[Todd]

I apologize if this seems like a nitpick, but the rule by itself is vague and probably needs to changed to make it's intention clearer; simply adding the word "new" would make the whole issue vanish.

Don't you dare! There is nothing at all wrong with this question.

I'd like to take this opportunity to address the troll conspiracy to undermine and ruin Malifaux theorists.

As a game like this acquires a larger audience, there are simply more individuals scrutinizing the rules. This can result in more errors being found, or differing interpretations of unclear rules. Some people like to bring attention to these situations because they want to make sure they're doing it right, and that everyone is on the same page.

This is a good thing.

As the game continues to grow we want it to be as clear and accessible to new players as possible. This results in even more new players. This means more games, more places to play, and in general, larger gaming communities for everyone to enjoy. For those of you who already have a tight knit gaming group who all intuitively "get it" all the time, and aren't interested in new players who don't, just don't worry about it. Sit back and enjoy your beer and pretzels.

Posting no actual rule info in a rule discussion thread, but telling us how we make you sad, need to cut it out, or are degrading the game? Accusing someone else of being a troll for actually having a clue about how the game works? Wtf?

Some people like to talk about this kind of stuff. If you don't, and you can't clear it up using actual rules, just leave it be. No reason to come in and be judgy mcjudgerson. If me, Kadeton, Wolfgar, Smiggs or anyone else prone to this kind of stuff want to go back and forth about it, where's the harm? The mods are there for the final word, and can step in if anything gets out of hand. Personally, the only venom I've experienced in rules debates here on this forum, has come from people who just want the debate to stop, not the ones actually doing the debating.

[Kadeton]

The easiest fix would be to change "Place" to "Summon" and just live with the new Seishin being slow on the turn they enter play.

+1 for the "extended semantic discussion is good" camp. Nitpicking is perfectly fine, because it leads to better, clearer rules systems. It's very different from rules-lawyering in order to gain an unfair advantage.

[magicpockets]

The easiest fix would be to change "Place" to "Summon" and just live with the new Seishin being slow on the turn they enter play.

Dont they start with being summoned and the point of the rule is to Place them instead? Plus changing place to summon would have wider repercussions, for example within 6 inches of a model with Voracious rats.

And re my comments above, my issue is the tone of a lot of new people on here who seem to down talk Wyrd, constantly complain that the rules are crap and badly written, and nit pick every small detail - often seeming for the simple sake of there "could" be confusion, not because there is. It just clutters the forum with bad feelings and gives new people the wrong impression of the game.

[Kadeton]

Dont they start with being summoned and the point of the rule is to Place them instead?

What do you mean by "start with being summoned"? Seishin are never summoned. It might be too early in the day for me, but I just can't work out what you mean here.

Plus changing place to summon would have wider repercussions, for example within 6 inches of a model with Voracious rats.

Yes indeed. Hamelin does have a tendency to break the game more than other Masters.

[karavak]

"Seishin are created whenever something dies close to Kirai and have so many uses with her"

This is from the Malifaux website talking about Kirai. So I guess they either have to change the wording on the card or change the website. It would be cheaper for them to change the website *grin*

Edited February 7, 2012 by karavak

[ravenborne]

Questioning the rules does not mean people are bashing wyrd. It probably means they actually like the game and want to see it grow.

[Calmdown]

This thread seems like the correct place to mention this:

Seishin's Spirit Sheath reads:

"While this model is in base contact with a friendly Kirai, its Controller may apply the affects of a successful attack against Kirai to this model instead of Kirai."

Since there is no such thing as a game affect, this means that Spirit Sheath does not actually do anything.

Take that, Kirai!

[karavak]

Take that, Kirai!

Kirai says No!

[Soul Puppet]

Or a model dies and and spirits already in existence are attracted by it, or sense death and swarm to protect their mistress.

Whilst also feasible, I think this would be of limited use as an ability. Not that I'm saying Wyrd wouldn't include abilities of limited use, I just think the way that the majority have interpreted it seems more fitting.

I apologize if this seems like a nitpick, but the rule by itself is vague and probably needs to changed to make it's intention clearer; simply adding the word "new" would make the whole issue vanish.

Yeah, no need to apologise, in fact I should be the one to apologise. At first glance I took this to be a case of petty rules lawyering and I pretty much gave up Warhammer because of that. I didn't want to see it appear in Malifaux and so vented my frustration prematurely.Anyway, as you were. Carry on...

[Keltheos]

So there's no confusion...

Kirai’s Spirit Anchor places a new Seishin into play. It does not relocate a Seishin already in play.

[karavak]

So there's no confusion...

Kirai’s Spirit Anchor places a new Seishin into play. It does not relocate a Seishin already in play.

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Todd]

So there's no confusion...

Kirai’s Spirit Anchor places a new Seishin into play. It does not relocate a Seishin already in play.

Since places can do both according to the rules, how do we know which one a rule means to do? Does LCB's daydream placing spell work the same way (only makes new daydreams)? Are there any situations where both types of place are intended/allowed?

[Wolfgar]

Like I said, before 90% of the time you can tell from context.

[MacVurrich]

Sorry if being a lurker and new to Kirai (play The Vikis mainly), but being a game tester and rules and toruney ref for a number of other systems, there is a rule "bending" that I see as potential though fun problem.

RAW - Kirai Spirit Anchor, "When a living, spirit or undead model is killed....." Seishen is a spirit,

A B2B Seishen is "killed" taken the wounds for Kirai, where upon due to the Play rule a new one is "placed" on the board. in effect that means that the Sesihen is in effect never removed from play (as you'll be replacing it in B2B from the one that was already there and thus have the space). And thus Kirai will effectivly take no wounds..

Sorry if I miss read but still see this a potential game (encounter) bender - lol

[Ausplosions]

Sorry if being a lurker and new to Kirai (play The Vikis mainly), but being a game tester and rules and toruney ref for a number of other systems, there is a rule "bending" that I see as potential though fun problem.

RAW - Kirai Spirit Anchor, "When a living, spirit or undead model is killed....." Seishen is a spirit,

A B2B Seishen is "killed" taken the wounds for Kirai, where upon due to the Play rule a new one is "placed" on the board. in effect that means that the Sesihen is in effect never removed from play (as you'll be replacing it in B2B from the one that was already there and thus have the space). And thus Kirai will effectivly take no wounds..

Sorry if I miss read but still see this a potential game (encounter) bender - lol

Except that when Seishin are killed, they count as sacrificed.

So no.

[MacVurrich]

Except that when Seishin are killed, they count as sacrificed.

So no.

Sorry if missed it but does Sacrificed mean removed from play before they are "killed" ?

As i read it they are sacrificed to allow the Scarificed rules to come in to effect. but are still "killed" and thus trigger the Anchor.

"if Killed treat Seishin as sacrificed" . I'm not tryign to be nit picky just from excperiance having judged and ref a number of tournies and being approach to run some independent nationals I'm just trying to make sure that I got my head right on it and cover for some "types" of gamers who Will use this .

Edited April 27, 2012 by MacVurrich

[Lucidicide]

Sorry if missed it but does Sacrificed mean removed from play before they are "killed" ?

As i read it they are sacrificed to allow the Scarificed rules to come in to effect. but are still "killed" and thus trigger the Anchor.

"if Killed treat Seishin as sacrificed" . I'm not tryign to be nit picky just from excperiance having judged and ref a number of tournies and being approach to run some independent nationals I'm just trying to make sure that I got my head right on it and cover for some "types" of gamers who Will use this .

Sacrifice and Killed are different ways of being removed from the game, and they are mutually exclusive.

[MacVurrich]

Sacrifice and Killed are different ways of being removed from the game, and they are mutually exclusive.

cheers for that, though can you clear up which effect comes first, are they "killed" then sacrificed or sacrificed in place.

It's a wordy point I know but depending on how it plays really means if a perpetual Sesihan is in play or not.

Cheers

[Lucidicide]

Assuming someone attacks a Seishin, it gets to the point where it would be killed. The card immediately makes it Sacrificed, as Seishin cannot be killed normally.

[roboshmoo]

They are sacrificed instead of being killed. Killed never happens and the trigger will not go off at any point.

[MacVurrich]

Cheers, so in effect the model is sacraficed by Kirai "JUST" before she sense it's goign to die.

That's cool, now back to the events pack and sorting it out with the host location

[Ausplosions]

cheers for that, though can you clear up which effect comes first, are they "killed" then sacrificed or sacrificed in place.It's a wordy point I know but depending on how it plays really means if a perpetual Sesihan is in play or not.Cheers

Neither comes first. It's one or the other. A model cannot be killed AND sacrificed. If a seishin loses all it's wounds, it is killed, but it's card states that when it is killed it counts as being sacrificed. Sacrificed models don't make more seishin..