Kirai, Spirit Anchor and Placing.

[Believe]

Now, I'm actually reasonably sure that the intent behind Spirit Anchor is to give you new seishins, but the use of "place" confuses me.

Place moves things, sometimes it moves things that are not on the board onto the board, like killjoy and bete noir, but they're things you've paid the ss for already, they just don't deploy normally.

So the rule, for the uninitiated, reads like you can place one of the seishins you already have in B2B with Kirai, tell me why I'm wrong, please?

[JayBarlekamp]

It is written this way so the seishin has to be in BtB contact with the model (not within 6") and isn't slow when it comes in to play. It is indeed a new seishin. Be aware though, if there is no place to put the new seishin (because of your own or enemy bases) then it doesn't come into being.

[Incarias]

Where is the rule/ruling that allows you to place a new Seishin?

Page 13 of the Rules Manual:

"Unless stated otherwise, only models in play can be affected by game effects and game events".

I cannot see where the rule is to circumvent this particular rule(?), so as to allow the placement of a Seishin not yet in play.

While I do agree with Believe that the intent of the rule is to let you place new Seishin, I cannot see how the rules allow it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Pg 120 of Rising Powers.

Spirit Anchor: ​When a living, Spirit, or Undead model is killed within 8", Place one Seishin in base contact with this model.

[Incarias]

Which allows you to take a Seishin already on the table, and place it in contact with Kirai. It says nothing about bringing a new Seishin into play.

[Silas Cordell]

I believe that "Place," when capitalized, is an official game term that involves putting a model into play. I don't have the book in front of me.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Correct. There is a difference between place and Place.

[Wolfgar]

Sorry, but that's not going to help. The rules for Place on page 38 of the Rules Manual can be applied either to models being brought into play or model's already in play.

When a model is Placed in a new location, effects limiting the distance it may move immediately end.

You can't have effects on models not already in play, so this means Place can apply to models already in play as well. Placement effects in general are called out as affecting both models coming into play and models already in play in the first line of it's description.

---------- Post added at 12:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

That said, the common interpretation in previous tactica and such discussing Kirai seems to be that Spirit Anchor brings new Seishen into play.

[Twisted Metal]

If "place" works the way you are claiming it should work then leveticus would be unplayable because he could never get his starting waif.

[Kadeton]

There are quite a few weird issues with Placing models.

Place is specifically a Movement Effect, it moves models that are in the game around. They don't have to be in play since you can Place a model that's buried. To bring new models into the game requires the Summon rules... except that there are some things that use Place when they really mean "Summon, but without gaining Slow".

Leveticus isn't a problem though, as his Waifs are always Summoned.

Here's a hinky one: the Dreamer's Daydreaming Summons a Daydream at the cost of two Soulstones, whereas Chompy's Dreamer's Daydream Places a Daydream at the cost of two Soulstones. It's not clear to me whether Chompy's version is supposed to bring in a new Daydream or just grab one from elsewhere in the game... spending 2 SS for that seems overly expensive.

[Wolfgar]

Place is specifically a Movement Effect,

Actually, it's not. The Rules Manual P. 38 sez:

A placement effect changes an in-play model's location on the table without using a movement effect to travel through terrain or other models, or brings a model that is not currently in play onto the table.

Place is a type of placement effect, not a movement effect. It also can apply either to models in play or not in play.

Summoning is a type of Place, but is specifically called out as bringing new models into the game. So models that are Summoned aren't a problem.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Wolfgar

[Todd]

Some official clarification would be nice. Placement can definitely move a model around the table, as well as bring a model into play. However, it is not specific as to where that model comes from (not in play = buried vs. not in game).

I don't see anything in the written rule that would prevent you from bringing a new model into the game with a place. Its getting them from the same place as summon (not in play). Though, I've got a feeling the intent is probably not for place to bring new models into the game.

[Wolfgar]

I don't see anything in the written rule that would prevent you from bringing a new model into the game with a place. Its getting them from the same place as summon (not in play). Though, I've got a feeling the intent is probably not for place to bring new models into the game.

I believe the intention is that Place can be either.

Normally, normally, it's clear from context whether they mean place an existing model or a new model from the rest of the rules description. It's open to interpretation here, although multiple tactica and such use Kirai bringing in new Seishin and I haven't seen that challenged.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Wolfgar

[magicpockets]

*shakes head*

This makes me sad.

In these circumstances Place is used as an alternative to summon to avoid the new model receiving slow and to circumvent effects like Voracious Rats. If it wasn't, KillJoy could never come into play, nor could a buried Nightmare.

You guys need to stop with the "the rules don't explicitly explain how the works" when it's obvious, there's no way you can't see the intention of how this works.

Edited February 2, 2012 by magicpockets

[Kadeton]

Place is a type of placement effect, not a movement effect. It also can apply either to models in play or not in play.

Summoning is a type of Place, but is specifically called out as bringing new models into the game. So models that are Summoned aren't a problem.

Herp-a-derp, yes, it's a Placement effect, like Switch and Replace. I knew what I meant, just didn't have the right term.

Looking into it, there are deeper issues here. Remember, a model can be in the game without being in play... a buried model, for example. Placement effects specifically state that they can bring models that are out of play into play, but not that they can bring models that are not in the game into the game.

However, it's obvious from context that these effects can bring entirely new models into the game. The Coryphee's Dance Together brings a Coryphee Duet into the game via Replace - there's no way that it can be in the game by any other means. The same applies to Steampunk Arachnids, etc... clearly, Placement effects can bring new models into the game, even though it's not expressed that way in the rules.

There needs to be some clearer distinctions on which abilities bring new models into the game via Place.

[Wolfgar]

In these circumstances Place is used as an alternative to summon to avoid the new model receiving slow and to circumvent effects like Voracious Rats. If it wasn't, KillJoy could never come into play, nor could a buried Nightmare.

Killjoy is obviously supposed to be brought in fresh because it mentions his deployment-You don't deploy him normally, so you have to follow the rules on his card to bring him into the game. Likewise the powers that bring in buried Nightmares specifically say buried Nightmares.

Spirit Anchor merely says Place and does not specify whether it means a new model or an existing one, does not have any context indicating either way, and could easily be applied either way without the game breaking down.

You guys need to stop with the "the rules don't explicitly explain how this works" when it's obvious, there's no way you can't see the intention of how this works.

I think the fact that the question at all was asked means it's not as obvious as you think it is.

[magicpockets]

[quote=Wolfgar;363403

I think the fact that the question at all was asked means it's not as obvious as you think it is.

[Wolfgar]

Looking into it, there are deeper issues here. Remember, a model can be in the game without being in play... a buried model, for example. Placement effects specifically state that they can bring models that are out of play into play, but not that they can bring models that are not in the game into the game.

Looking at the rules for buried and such on P. 13. In-play means on the table. Out-of-play means not on the table. Models only go out of game if they are killed or sacrificed. So a model can't be put out of game until they have been put in play and killed/sacrificed.

[Kadeton]

Looking at the rules for buried and such on P. 13. In-play means on the table. Out-of-play means not on the table. Models only go out of game if they are killed or sacrificed. So a model can't be put out of game until they have been put in play and killed/sacrificed.

Sure, but a model that was never in the game to begin with is simply not in the game, it isn't out of play, at least in my understanding. If neither player paid Soulstones for a model to be included in their crew, that model is not in the game. Example: Coryphee Duet.

[Wolfgar]

The doesn't say anything about models having to have soulstones paid to be in game. It says models killed or sacrificed are removed from the game; all models are in game by default. Paying soulstones just allows those models to be deployed.

[Kadeton]

Interesting... Hiring a model makes it part of your crew but otherwise I guess you're right - technically, everything is in the game.

Therefore, any Placement effect which specifies a Friendly model can only be used on models that are already part of your crew. However, any effect which doesn't (like Kirai's) could bring a new model into play from the infinite pool of uncrewed models 'in the game'. A model that's brought into play by one of your models becomes part of your crew.

That's a pretty odd way of resolving it, though! Are there any majorly weird issues that would throw into the works? The designers are generally pretty careful about specifying Friendly etc.

[Believe]

...a well written and obviously experienced understanding of Malifaux?

Why thank you kind sir.

Further question:

In a Kirai vs. Kirai battle, could you place an enemy seishin that's on the board with spirit anchor?

[Kadeton]

Further question:

In a Kirai vs. Kirai battle, could you place an enemy seishin that's on the board with spirit anchor?

By RAW I'd say you could, but you wouldn't become its Controller because it already has one. The opponent could move it back into base contact with their Kirai at the end of the currently-acting model's activation. I guess you could kill it in the mean time, though.

However, I daresay that any Kirai player on whom you attempt to pull this sort of crap will get stroppy about it.

[Incarias]

By a brand new account and it's first post - yet a well written and obviously experienced understanding of Malifaux? Be interesting to see the IP address of the poster, as I smell Trolls.

I'm sorry to spin off topic, but:

http://www.trollskogen.net/forum/figurspel/malifaux-regelkonstateranden/

Being another member of the gaming club called Troll (yes, seriously) of which Believe is a member, I want to inform you that we're all laughing right about now...*grin*

[Mike3838]

The doesn't say anything about models having to have soulstones paid to be in game. It says models killed or sacrificed are removed from the game; all models are in game by default. Paying soulstones just allows those models to be deployed.

Fraid not. "In the game" and "In play" are defined quite early in the Rules Manual.

Broadly:

In play = on the board

In the game = on the board or buried

Models killed or sacrificed, and models sitting in your carry case, and unassembled models on the shelves of the local store, are clearly not in the game.

Mike

[Soul Puppet]

Spirit Anchor merely says Place and does not specify whether it means a new model or an existing one, does not have any context indicating either way, and could easily be applied either way without the game breaking down.

To me the context goes something like this:A Living or Undead Model that is killed within range of Kirai, has it's soul ripped from its body and shackled to Kirai creating a new Seishin under her control.Has Malifaux really degraded into the nitpicking found in Warhammer?