Nicodem's Embrace Death

[Calmdown]

Can I please get a sequence or some timing on how this ability interacts with undead-affecting abilities from a RM? The most confusing part is the use of the word "when" which is not really defined at all.

As written, this talent barely interacts with any talents at all, and is very questionable with others.

For example:

Grave Spirit - Nicodem gains Undead when affected by Strength from Below; does this mean he gains the Undead trait permanently whilst the Grave Spirit is attached, since he is constantly affected by Strength from Below? Or does he gain it only for the purposes of that talent? Can you please explain why?

Mortimer - "All friendly Undead models in play..." since this doesn't affect Nicodem as he isn't Undead at the time of using it, he never gets the chance to gain Undead - or does he?

It seems to me the intention of Nicodem's ability is to let all beneficial friendly Undead effects work on him, but as written it's very ambiguous.

Thanks

[Keltheos]

Yeh that's another thing. Its not really clear if he then becomes undead (and so can be affected by undead-affecting abilities) or if he just is undead for the purposes of that one effect. I play it as the latter, but again it could be argued that the former is correct (meaning if you link a grave spirit to him... He is permanent undead until unlinked, for example)

You're right in assuming it's the latter.

He's Undead when it suits him.

[Kadeton]

You're right in assuming it's the latter.

He's Undead when it suits him.

Excellent. As I expected, but good to have the clarification. Thanks!

Grats on 5000 posts, by the way.

[Calmdown]

You're right in assuming it's the latter.

He's Undead when it suits him.

Thankyou sir.

[sunabe]

so if he is undead when you want him. then you should be able to run him with Levi right?

[edonil]

Um. No. Cause crew selection isn't an effect.

[Golden]

I think this could use further clarification.

Pariah is an ability that has an effect during crew selection. Why doesn't it interact with Embrace Death?

Guild hounds have an ability that takes place in crew selection, I believe its "Trained in Pairs."

Other masters have broadened hiring abilities that influence hiring crews. How is this limitation any different by timing?

Coryphee have a limitation on what faction can specifically hire it, as an ability.

There's even Lucius, who has an ability upon hiring, that backtracks to determining strategy, checks to see if you used a soul stone to reflip, then adds one SS to your cache when you determine the size of it.

Abilities on cards have effects at varied times during the game not just when gameplay starts or finishes.

All of that being said, Id really like to know why not?

The best argument against it has been: because Pariah effects Leveticus, but I dont completely agree with that, it effects the hired crew, which could in turn effect Nicodem.(Note the wording of "a crew containing this model" it most directly states the effect on the crew because of the models presence)

But lastly, here's more food for thought, are masters hired or chosen? Im a little fuzzy on the exact wording of the rules right now but it may be an entirely moot point solely on the wording of that one thing.

Anyhow, Im not trying to come off as aggressive this time, I just wanted to put a few things to compare out there.

Cant wait to see the replies.

[Requirement]

Because it's an effect from another model that happens "in-game."

It would be like saying because Hoffman could assimilate Borrowed Technology, he should always be hire-able by Ramos. (Little more extreme example, for hyperbole sake)

Hopefully to clear some things up, different effects take place at different times:

Pariah is an ability that has an effect during crew selection. Why doesn't it interact with Embrace Death? Pariah does become active during crew hiring. Embrace Death however becomes active later (when being affected by talents or spells that affect the undead.) Hiring, as far as I know, isn't a talent.

Guild hounds have an ability that takes place in crew selection, I believe its "Trained in Pairs." Guild Kennels takes effect at the "start of the encounter." So, after hiring as you are starting to shuffle your cards is when you magically receive your soulstone for hiring two of them. (This is how it was explained to me, I could be wrong. It works kind of like a tax refund.)

Other masters have broadened hiring abilities that influence hiring crews. How is this limitation any different by timing? To use the Hoffman example at the top, it's something that can only come up during the encounter, so it can't affect hiring choices pre-encounter.

Coryphee have a limitation on what faction can specifically hire it, as an ability. Most models have a limitation, not written on their card, as to which factions can hire them... faction restrictions. The Coryphee has the reverse of Levi, it is a true hiring restriction as I think of it. They can only be hired by crews containing an Arcanist master, so Hoffman, despite his Arcanist ties hiring ability, can not hire them.

To the same extent, going the opposite direction, the Hunter and Watcher have Borrowed Technology allowing them to be hired by crews containing Ramos, who has no Hiring r

There's even Lucius, who has an ability upon hiring, that backtracks to determining strategy, checks to see if you used a soul stone to reflip, then adds one SS to your cache when you determine the size of it. This one has also been a doozie to get my head around. Add Lucius to your crew, after re-flipping, gain a soulstone. This one, like the Guild Hounds ability, takes place as you are shuffling your cards. I read this as "Lucius already knew you burned the stone and like the great guy he is, showed up with an extra one," it is called Advance Planning after all.

So, the moral of the story is that everything takes place at different times and is just always going to be really confusing *grins* Basic guideline is "Cannot always overrides Can, and theory never overrides anything."

The way I view masters is that the first one is chosen, then the second one is hired. This just keeps the confusion down of wondering if you hire the first one, how did you hire it. Is the Player in effect a deity? Who hired the player? (Is the player omnipotent? Does he know what I did last summer?)

Hopefully this clears anything up. I could also be wrong on some things, so feel free to correct me.

[Golden]

The accurate wording of your response is appreciated. I wasn't attempting to say theory should override anything. Given the nature of these other abilities, would it be feasible to say that at the start of the encounter Embrace Death would have given Nicodem the undead trait during hiring?

As per your example with Lucius: Leveticus says to the approaching Nicodem as the minions are gathering, "C'mon with us, Gramps, you could die at any minute." **Stated as such for humor** More like Nicodem and Leveticus have a bond due to their manipulations of the veil of life.

I also try to incorporate game balance and I don't see any immediate red flags from pairing the two of them up.

Also, I will refrain from comment on the Hoffman example.

This made me think of starting a new thread...

Edited May 18, 2012 by Golden

[Golden]

Im surprised nothing else has been posted on this. Id hate to think Im right.

[Ausplosions]

Im surprised nothing else has been posted on this. Id hate to think Im right.

Don't worry.

You're not.

[TimeLapse]

I don't see the underlining problem?

The ability states the following,

"Embrace Death: This model can choose to gain the Undead

characteristic when affected by talents or spells that affect

Undead."

So two things need to happen if Nicadem wants to count as undead, first he must be affected by ether a talent or a spell next the talent or spell in question must affect undead in a way.

So lets look at the grave spirit ability

"Strength from Below: Friendly Undead models linked

to this model receive Armor +2. While linked to a

friendly model this model cannot be targeted by

enemy ranged attacks and spells."

So is it a talent or a spell? Yes its an ability so its a talent. Check.

Does it affect Undead? yes it does

So Nicodem can get Armour + 2

Next Mortimer's spell,

"(1) “Fresh Meat!“

(CC: 12M/Rst: Df /Rg: 15) All friendly Undead models

in play may immediately move up to their Wk toward

the target model."

So is it a talent or a spell? Yes its a spell. Check.

Does it affect Undead? yes it does.

Fresh meat can affect Nicodem.

I don't know about hiring him with levy but I don't see any wiggle room for doubt on weather or not a talent or spell that targets undead can target Nicodem if he wants it to.

I just don't see any ambiguity at all with the rule it seems cut and dry to me.

Edited May 20, 2012 by TimeLapse

[Golden]

Don't worry.

You're not.

Its funny only when I do it. If your gonna criticize me for what I have to say at least add something in the process.

And now, its time to not be nice...

[Ausplosions]

Its funny only when I do it. If your gonna criticize me for what I have to say at least add something in the process.

And now, its time to not be nice...

Haha.

Okay....

[Golden]

"Cannot overrides can" in Magic the Gathering, not always the case in Malifaux. Read "For Money" on the Viktoria stat card, watch it destroy what you "know" to be true.

Im going to write what I see to be happening in the interaction of abilities, the exact wording of the abilities, and where you can find them, all I ask is that anyone who wants to oppose my perspective, please do the same.

After strategies are flipped and you move into the Hire Crew "Phase" of the game, for a Brawl, you choose Leveticus as your Primary Master causing Pariah to become a new parameter in hiring your crew and your Secondary Master.(Pariah- Leveticus stat card V2- Crews containing this model can only hire Constructs, Undead, and Soulless models, but may hire them from any Faction without additional cost. This model cannot hire Totems. At the start of the first Activation Phase, summon a Hollow Waif to base contact with this model.) Pariah now has an effect on the crew you can hire. Abilities can have an effect at this phase, we already discussed a variety of the ones that do.

You can now only hire Undead, Soulless, and Construct models, the only specification on what you can't hire are totems attached to Leveticus.

You now "Hire" your Secondary Master, according to your new parameters. So lets go with Hoffman, he's a construct so Pariah affects him, allowing him to be hired or allowing him to be in the pool of models that can be hired, take your pick. He can be paired with Leveticus.

Same for Ramos (who opens up Coryphee as an option, OOOOH remember that ability they have? He's an arcanist master and he fulfills that.) Or Hamelin because he's Soulless. Leveticus could even hire Molly or Collodi as Henchman, preferably over taking them as a second master, because they are Undead and Construct respectively, which means Pariah affects them.

What about Perdita? No, she's Living because she has no characteristic that says otherwise, which means she is neither Undead, Construct, or Soulless. Therefore Pariah doesn't have an affect on her and she either can't be "hired" or is not in the available pool of hireable models because of it, take your pick.

But the Viktorias can, despite that they're living, they have For Money. Which states - This Model may join a Crew with any other Master in a Brawl, but reduce its Crew's available soulstones by 5.(Viktoria Stat card)

And then there's Nicodem he's living, which means Pariah won't affect him. Enter Embrace Death- This Model can choose to gain the Undead characteristic when affected by talents or spells that affect Undead(Nicodem Stat Card). Which gives Nicodem the Undead characteristic allowing Pariah to affect him, either allowing him to be hired or adding him to the pool of hirable models, take your pick.

At no point does it specify that the talent or spell has to target Nicodem specifically. At no point does it say after the first activation phase. It says that if it can affect Undead he can gain the characteristic and be affected as well... You could give him Undead if Lady Justice uses (all)Restore Balance (why would you want to?) and have him affected by taking 3 wounds.

Ive kept it as I read right off the card, and like I said before, please do the same if you want to reply, and tell me where I can find what your saying. I like to have a reference for when my friends argue with me.

Imagine what you'll "know" tommorrow...

[Q'iq'el]

The problem with this reasoning is that to be "affected" had been understood very narrowly in Malifaux. Basically it meant the model receives some effects and effects have been quite well defined for some time (and being hired doesn't seem to be one).

Doesn't mean you are wrong. Just that there is high likelihood Nicodem isn't affected by Levi's ability at all, in game terms.

[Golden]

Foremost Q, I respect your opinion, you've always spoke about the rules with intelligence and accuracy.

I never said hiring Nicodem was an effect, I said the ability to hire him was a result of Embrace Death allowing Pariah to affect him.

Honestly, I can explain further if you like, but Im in strong disagreement that it is highly unlikely.

Ive also just read the Defining Effects page in the small rulebook on page 19. Im still not seeing why it can't be applied as I have already laid it out.

[Q'iq'el]

Foremost Q, I respect your opinion, you've always spoke about the rules with intelligence and accuracy.

I never said hiring Nicodem was an effect, I said the ability to hire him was a result of Embrace Death allowing Pariah to affect him.

Honestly, I can explain further if you like, but Im in strong disagreement that it is highly unlikely.

Ive also just read the Defining Effects page in the small rulebook on page 19. Im still not seeing why it can't be applied as I have already laid it out.

What I'm pointing at is not whether there's an effect placed on Nicodem or not, but that the language of Nicodem's ability, i.e. "when affected" is usually interpreted as meaning the model must receive an effect (immediate or ongoing) for the ability to kick in. Since being hired is not an effect, that ability cannot come into play.

In other words, according to this narrow interpretation being hired does not qualify as being affected by anything and in such case Embrace Death doesn't work.

Now I cannot tell if that narrow interpretation is supported by the rules ore merely customary right now, but this is the very point on which the entire argument pivots and the thing you should look to clarify based on the Rules Manual.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Golden]

Again, being hired isn't the effect. Pariah is the ability that generates an effect, it affects all Constructs, Soulless, and Undead models, determing what can be hired into a Crew containing Leveticus. Or another interpretation is that it checks each model hired into the Crew for one or more of those charateristics and then allows it into the Crew based on whether or not one of them is present.

Hiring is the end result, not an effect.

Let's look at something completely different.

Unexplained Connection: Crews containing C. Hoffman may hire this model at no additional Soulstone cost. (Malifaux, Rising Powers, pg 174, Coppelius-Minion)

Its an ability that states that this model(Coppelius), for no tangible reason, can be hired into a Crew containg this other model(Hoffman).

Ability generates effect, names affected model, and states end result.

But maybe Im missing something, what is the common understanding of effect in this game?

[Ausplosions]

The problem is that Nicodems ability states that he may gain the Undead characteristic when affected by talents and spells that effect undead.

Levi's hiring restrictions effect Levi, not Nicodem, and not undead.

He's hiring them, not affecting them. He is affecting his own hiring restrictions.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Ausplosions

[Golden]

No, buddy, try reading the cards and not the posts Ive already addressed. And an easy way to shut me up that would actually work would be to tell me where you get your information.

[Ausplosions]

Levi card says THIS model may only hire blah blah blah.

So the "effect" is on Levi. His pariah ability effects him. Not others.

No need to get snippy because you read a certain tone in my text.

[Golden]

It says: Crews containing this model.

And don't put your attitude on me. Look at the way you opened this dialogue, what should I expect?

[seekerco]

Golden I would have to rule no on Levi and Nico in the same crew. And here is my definitive reason. If you could run them in the same crew I would assume the Crew Creator program would let you do it. But as of now it doesn't so I would have to error on the side of program that was created by the company who made the game for people to build crews.

[Mach_5]

I'm in the "no you can't" group unless a rules marshal decided to step in and say otherwise. I don't give you good odds on that happening.

[Golden]

I can respect that opinion, eventhough I don't trust computer programs like that. Id prefer to have a rules marshall tell me it can't be done and why the rules don't allow it, but at least you've given me something with a researchable backing. I can appreciate that.

Eventhough your account was created in the last hour, Im the only person whose visited your profile page, you've mispelled Colorado, and most Americans don't usually specify USA.

I give you credit for at least attempting to restart our dialogue.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Golden