Nicodem's Embrace Death

[Calmdown]

Can I please get a sequence or some timing on how this ability interacts with undead-affecting abilities from a RM? The most confusing part is the use of the word "when" which is not really defined at all.

As written, this talent barely interacts with any talents at all, and is very questionable with others.

For example:

Grave Spirit - Nicodem gains Undead when affected by Strength from Below; does this mean he gains the Undead trait permanently whilst the Grave Spirit is attached, since he is constantly affected by Strength from Below? Or does he gain it only for the purposes of that talent? Can you please explain why?

Mortimer - "All friendly Undead models in play..." since this doesn't affect Nicodem as he isn't Undead at the time of using it, he never gets the chance to gain Undead - or does he?

It seems to me the intention of Nicodem's ability is to let all beneficial friendly Undead effects work on him, but as written it's very ambiguous.

Thanks

[Calmdown]

Answer on this would be appreciated when anyone has the time.

Cheers

[Nathan Caroland]

Bit impatient considering its the weekend and the site has been down.

[Calmdown]

Bit impatient considering its the weekend and the site has been down.

Went the whole of Friday without an answer which is incredibly unusual for this forum, so just wanted to make sure it hadn't gone un-noticed is all. No offence intended.

[Kadeton]

I started to comment, but it got me questioning my own ideas of how the ability worked, so I decided not to until I'd had more of a think about it.

The Grave Spirit question is very interesting, and applies to any continuous effect in general. However, I think it can be supported within the rules that such effects are only checked when it's 'relevant' (same as how you only check range of auras, etc when relevant) and at that instant, Nico can choose to be considered Undead. This would effectively allow for the interpretation which everyone already plays, i.e. friendly beneficial Undead-affecting stuff works on him, and nothing else does.

[Golden]

In your first example, yes it does, it doesn't give the Undead trait though. Yes it does work on him, in your second example as well. Third, it can actually allow you to run Nico and Levi side by side in a Brawl, read Levi's card(I think Pariah). It will also kick in should you be touched by a blast from your own or a totem's decay, or Molly's. I also believe it allows Molly to give him necrotis spray. These are about the only instances I can think of.

Also if your using Rule book #1 its worded terribly, the card explains it way better. But its in my car and I just woke up. Hope this helps.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Golden
Added content.

[Calmdown]

In your first example, yes it does, it doesn't give the Undead trait though. Yes it does work on him, in your second example as well. Third, it can actually allow you to run Nico and Levi side by side in a Brawl, read Levi's card(I think Pariah). It will also kick in should you be touched by a blast from your own or a totem's decay, or Molly's. I also believe it allows Molly to give him necrotis spray. These are about the only instances I can think of.

Also if your using Rule book #1 its worded terribly, the card explains it way better. But its in my car and I just woke up. Hope this helps.

Unfortunately it isn't that easy. There's no real way of knowing how this is meant to work because there is no defined rulebook interaction for it, no precedent and the timing is unclear (hence what Kadeton said).

Needs a RM really to clear it up.

[Truthsayer]

Im not 100% on the grave spirit example, but the intention of Nicodems rule is to allow him to ignore/allow anything that targets undead when he wants.

With the grave spirit, i would say he can still change from living to undead when he wants, but perhaps if he decides to be living for the spell/effect that is taking place, he wouldnt have the armour +2. After the effect/spell though, he can then choose to be undead again to gain the armour bonus.

And with mortimer, it is a clear cut 'All friendly undead models...' spell, and as it is a spell, Nicodem can choose to gain undead to be affected. Very useful to have Mortimer push the old man up the field a bit more!

[Q'iq'el]

It's been always played in the most straightforward way - if an effect of a talent or spell affects Nicodem, and that spell has a component which affects undead or affects them differently, he can choose to be undead for the purpose of that particular effect.

So if vulture casts Decay on Nicodem, Nicodem can choose to get healed, or damaged.

If Fresh Meat is cast, and it affects only undead, he can take is as if he were undead.

On the other hand he cannot choose to be undead for the purpose of Terrifying test for example, to gain immunity to it. The reason is that Terrifying doesn't have any particular component affecting undead - on the contrary, it doesn't affect undead... so he can't choose to be not affected.

But obviously this is customary way of playing it carrying over from the early days of Book 1. I've never investigated how the new rules affect this, actually... because everybody I know plays it like that and nobody ever questioned it.

I'd argue that he always receives the benefit of Strength from Below, when the Grave Spirit is linked to him... if he wants to. The SfB is a talent, and the effect is +2 Armor. He can choose to be undead to be affected by it. It is limited to that one effect though - it doesn't automatically make him undead for anything else (though he can of course choose to count as undead for the purpose of other effects, if applicable). Again, this is only the customary interpretation.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

It's been always played in the most straightforward way - if an effect of a talent or spell affects Nicodem' date=' and that spell has a component which affects undead or affects them differently, he can choose to be undead for the purpose of that particular effect.[/quote']

Totally agree that that is blatantly the intention. But as a tournament player intention doesnt cut it.

In the case of Mortimer specifically, it says "all undead models in the crew" and Nicodem says "when affected by..may gain undead". There's a very definite argument for saying that he is never affected in the first place by a non-targeted effect that only affects undead, which is what I'm hoping isnt the case so that Morty can make Nicodem walk

[Q'iq'el]

Totally agree that that is blatantly the intention. But as a tournament player intention doesnt cut it.

No no, it isn't the case of RAI at all. It is the case of no RAW available at all and choosing a customary interpretation which works against the interpretation which doesn't work at all.

In other words, there is no mechanic in the game, as far as I know, which would allow to models to retroactively change the effects (other than dispeling them). If we assumed, as you say, that the state of the model the moment it gets affected is what counts, then Embrace Death would never work. Not only wouldn't Fresh Meat work, but Nicodem hit by Decay (by his Totem or Molly) would still be living when it hits - choosing to be undead after the effect hits him, or for the duration of the effect, would be doing absolutely nothing to that effect... Same for other similar Talents and Spells. That would still be a very weird and practically useless ability.

Instead we take the mechanical approach to the thing - same as we do with Simultaneous Activations. In Malifaux whenever you are doing something with the model (targeting, activating, moving, applying an effect etc.), you first check if the model is legible for it, then you apply it and finally you execute it if the conditions are met (i.e. the effect is immediate or it is ongoing but the conditions for execution are met). Immunities of all sorts stop the effects before they even get applied for that very reason. This is not a well stated general rule, but this is, generally how these rules work. I'd also risk saying that rulings tend to point in this direction, but I'm not sure how consistent these are.

So in my opinion, the interpretation, which assumes Nicodem can choose to take the effect as an Undead model at the stage, where you check if he is legitimate target for the effect or not, is the one that works. That it happens to make more sense is additional pro, but a secondary one.

Obviously, this isn't RAW, but rather an "informed guess". But it isn't exactly RAI either, but rather extrapolation of other rules and customary interpretation on the top of that.

Let me explain on your Mortimer's example:

In the case of Mortimer specifically, it says "all undead models in the crew" and Nicodem says "when affected by..may gain undead". There's a very definite argument for saying that he is never affected in the first place by a non-targeted effect that only affects undead, which is what I'm hoping isnt the case so that Morty can make Nicodem walk

When Mortimer casts Fresh Meat the player picks up the first model, checks if it is Undead and moves it towards the target. Then he picks up the next model and does the same. The moment he picks up Nicodem, Nicodem chooses to be Undead through Embrace Death and turns out to be legitimate target. Then you apply the effect.

I know that convincing people to analyze game mechanics and the way the game plays and not only the rules is very difficult - especially in the tournament crowd that wants to see it spelled out RAW. Mainly because there are many different mechanics and many exceptions to the standard way of doing things and arguing all that takes forever. But this is the case where that method works.

100% agree that it could use clearer wording to help the tournament players to quickly dispel any arising problems concerning this rule.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

Don't disagree with you, Q.

But ambiguity, regardless of where it arises, doesn't cut it in a tournament. hence why I want to get this officially out of the way before I try to take Nico to one

[Q'iq'el]

I've heard punching in the stomach and stealing the opponent's army case is a universally accepted way to deal with excess of ambiguity at tournaments.

[Kadeton]

I've heard punching in the stomach and stealing the opponent's army case is a universally accepted way to deal with excess of ambiguity at tournaments.

You can always ask the cops to make a ruling when they arrive, as well. They're usually happy to help out.

[Q'iq'el]

Not only are they known to side with the Guild, but they tend to play Hamelin. And they do nothing as far as resolving ambiguity goes.

[Headcase2]

Third, it can actually allow you to run Nico and Levi side by side in a Brawl, read Levi's card(I think Pariah).

Pretty sure this is wrong. Nico can only count as undead when he's on the board, the ability doesn't work during the hiring step.

[Calmdown]

Levi is a merc so you can hire him anyway.

[mythicFOX]

You breaking the game again Ian?

The way I would hope it works is that you choose whenever 'the game' needs to check to see if something is undead or not.

Using Mortimer's "Fresh Meat!" as an example;

Mortimer casts "Fresh Meat!", the defender fails to resist. The game finds every model within 15" and checks each of those models to see if it is Undead. When the game checks if Nicodem is Undead then Embrace Death allows you to give him the Undead characteristic (or not).

Using Grave Spirit's Strength from Below as an example;

Grave spirit is linked to Nicodem. Nicodem takes damage, the game checks to see if SFB will give Nicodem Armor +2 or not, again you may choose to have him gain the Undead characteristic.

I'll stress that I don't know if this is correct, just that's the way it would make most sense to me.

(Speaking in terms of 'the game' doing something is an old hangover from MtG, you could as easily say 'the players').

Edited January 31, 2012 by mythicFOX

[Truthsayer]

You breaking the game again Ian?

The way I would hope it works is that you choose whenever 'the game' needs to check to see if something is undead or not.

Using Mortimer's "Fresh Meat!" as an example;

Mortimer casts "Fresh Meat!", the defender fails to resist. The game finds every model within 15" and checks each of those models to see if it is Undead. When the game checks if Nicodem is Undead then Embrace Death allows you to give him the Undead characteristic (or not).

Using Grave Spirit's Strength from Below as an example;

Grave spirit is linked to Nicodem. Nicodem takes damage, the game checks to see if SFB will give Nicodem Armor +2 or not, again you may choose to have him gain the Undead characteristic.

I'll stress that I don't know if this is correct, just that's the way it would make most sense to me.

(Speaking in terms of 'the game' doing something is an old hangover from MtG, you could as easily say 'the players').

This sounds like a very logical ruling. This is how I play it, and everyone I game against agrees this is how it is intended.

[Headcase2]

Levi is a merc so you can hire him anyway.

No, Levi is an Outcast. He does not have the mercenary trait.

[Q'iq'el]

Pretty sure this is wrong. Nico can only count as undead when he's on the board, the ability doesn't work during the hiring step.

I used to be sure of that, but now we have abilities changing hiring rules aplenty.

If a model can change what the crew can hire through an ability, then why can't Embrace Death "react" to that ability? After all it allows him to gain the characteristic whenever he is affected by a Talent of Spell, and Levi's ability limiting his hiring options is aTalent.

The only solid argument I can see against this is that Levi's talent doesn't affect Nicodem, but Levi instead - it is Levi who cannot use normal hiring procedures because of the Talent's effects. Since Nicodem isn't affected, Embrace Death wouldn't come into play.

[Calmdown]

You breaking the game again Ian?

The way I would hope it works is that you choose whenever 'the game' needs to check to see if something is undead or not.

Using Mortimer's "Fresh Meat!" as an example;

Mortimer casts "Fresh Meat!", the defender fails to resist. The game finds every model within 15" and checks each of those models to see if it is Undead. When the game checks if Nicodem is Undead then Embrace Death allows you to give him the Undead characteristic (or not).

Using Grave Spirit's Strength from Below as an example;

Grave spirit is linked to Nicodem. Nicodem takes damage, the game checks to see if SFB will give Nicodem Armor +2 or not, again you may choose to have him gain the Undead characteristic.

I'll stress that I don't know if this is correct, just that's the way it would make most sense to me.

(Speaking in terms of 'the game' doing something is an old hangover from MtG, you could as easily say 'the players').

Again - totally agree that that's the intention and that's how I play it too.

But, there is definitely room for discussion there if someone disagrees so I'm just trying to pre-empt the inevitable that will happen at a tournament and hoping for a firm clarification.

[mythicFOX]

+1 mate. No issues with the thread. Just putting in my 2p on how IMHO it should work.

One thing I wasn't 100% on is, I assume that when Nicodem chooses to gain Undead he is then undead until the effect ends as normal at the end of the turn?

[Calmdown]

+1 mate. No issues with the thread. Just putting in my 2p on how IMHO it should work.

One thing I wasn't 100% on is, I assume that when Nicodem chooses to gain Undead he is then undead until the effect ends as normal at the end of the turn?

Yeh that's another thing. Its not really clear if he then becomes undead (and so can be affected by undead-affecting abilities) or if he just is undead for the purposes of that one effect. I play it as the latter, but again it could be argued that the former is correct (meaning if you link a grave spirit to him... He is permanent undead until unlinked, for example)

[Calmdown]

Bumping this for the big fellas.

[Ausplosions]

I'm just starting out with Nico, and would love this clarified too.