Slumming it: Calmdown's Rezzers 2012 Diary

[Calmdown]

So Calmdown, when are you going to give the Guild some love? I'd love to read your thoughts on constructing a good Hoffman or Perdita list.

Probably never I played Guild when I first started and rapidly realised that they weren't my style.

I like your thoughts on McM Calmdown although i disagree that the Chihuahua is a turn one sac. I've used him to great affect to create early bodyparts from dogs (through wrack with pain), later he offers an alternative wrack with pain cast which can be down right nasty shutting down (0) actions - albeit card intensive.

He's not always a turn 1 sac, it was mostly a joke But it's very hard to beat these openings:

Chihuahua casts Wrack on a Dog (1 bp)

Chihuahua moves (5" move)

McMourning hits Dog and it dies (1ap used, 3bp)

McMourning Scalpel Slings to Chihuahua (1ap used, 7" moved, 4bp)

McMourning hits Chihuahua and it dies (2ap used, 8bp)

For 2ap and 3ss worth of models, McMourning has moved over 7" and can now summon a Rogue Necromancy next turn (and his threat range for this is now basically the entire board).

Alternative opening:

Chihuahua casts Wrack on Dead Rider (1bp)

McMourning Wracks Chihuahua with Scalpel Magic for an attack, Chihuahua dies (1ap used, 5bp)

McMourning moves (5" moved)

McMourning Summons Flesh Construct (21" from board edge threat range)

The last thing you want to be doing is messing about hitting your own models on turn 2 when most lists are entering their threat ranges (this is where Rezzer players fall down; they think they're playing a list intended to raise a mighty army of the dead rather than getting stuck in to winning the game), which is why Chihuahua is, generally, dead on turn 1.

[dsmiles]

I'm considering Seamus as my second Resser master, since I have Molly (and Kirai). Any special tactics I should know about (other than the belle alpha strike)?

[Calmdown]

I'm considering Seamus as my second Resser master, since I have Molly (and Kirai). Any special tactics I should know about (other than the belle alpha strike)?

I'm not as experienced with Seamus as some other guys here, but I can tell you that the two most common mistakes people make when building Seamus lists are:

-not giving him enough SS (ideally 8... minimum 6)

-taking too many Belles/support models and/or not taking enough big hitters

And the most common play mistake people make with Seamus is:

-thinking that he's difficult to remove from the board

Get round those two and he is effective, albeit within the limits of being an average, 2ss master in an average faction.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Calmdown

[Zephir]

So the Chihuahua is a fantastic totem for reasons other then cheap parts. In fact I dare say if thats you take it for your shorting yourself quite a bit. McMourning has a fantastic spell list. and a focused Disection or Wracked with Pain from the dog is worth the extra stone to buy a canine for parts in every game. Hes the only totem who can actually 1 shot a master, save up a high crow, cast dissect and stone it. Drop in a severe damage or if your lucky the red joker and watch your opponent cringe.

Also Crooked Men are beastly. Sure their spells are hard to cast, but go ahead and mostly ignore them, for 4 stone they are pretty good in melee and can paralyze people,. The trigger alone makes them worth their points.

I like that your focusing on Ressers. I strongly dislike the way you present it. Ressers are fun and strong if played well. It shouldn't be a chore or sacrifice to play them.

[Calmdown]

Models for new list I'm going to be testing ordered:

[dsmiles]

Lol

[Cornelious1424]

I'm not as experienced with Seamus as some other guys here, but I can tell you that the two most common mistakes people make when building Seamus lists are:

-not giving him enough SS (ideally 8... minimum 6)

-taking too many Belles/support models and/or not taking enough big hitters

And the most common play mistake people make with Seamus is:

-thinking that he's difficult to remove from the board

Get round those two and he is effective, albeit within the limits of being an average, 2ss master in an average faction.

Hit the nail on the head with this one.

[Stonedog-7]

Hit the nail on the head with this one.

Couldn't agree more... from reading up plenty before trying him i run Seamus with 8ss and only 2-3 Belles and haven't had TOO bad a run with him, though a couple of times i've had to kill off badly wounded friendly models to ensure Seamus' survival and once had to use the Copycat's ability to swap places

But i've only lost him once, but doing so won me the game

He's not Lady J easy to kill, but he's no nightmare like Colette/Kirai

Back on topic though, good to see this write up... i agree with most of the stuff to do with McMourning, will be interested to see it reflected in the play experience on models i haven't tried much and will be very interested to see how Nicodem fares

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yeah, I've found that Seamus actually doesn't tend to live very long most games, as he is either killed by spam attacks which go for the red joker for a one turn kill, or he is just whittled down because once you lock him in melee combat he pretty much folds.

He isn't particularly dangerous to be next to, as his combat & dmg isn't all that great, and even his triggers can be pretty yawn inducing to the model that's threatening him. And once he is locked in combat you can't use his most effective means of healing, which is Live for Pain, as it's a ranged attack.

Seamus might have been about right when the game first came out, but he is swiftly getting left by the roadside as the game progresses. Above all I really wish there was some way to force Seamus' Terrifying through on valid targets, as Seamus' Terror stat is just another minor annoyance in dealing with him, when it could be so much better. Ah well, maybe next edition.

Will be following this thread with interest.

[Golden]

Totally agree with the thread title. Nicodem and Seamus were the first 2 masters I played with and since Ive branched into others the difference in power tends to feel very freeing, Id strongly predict the opposite for you, but Ive never played Kirai (still painting her). I may not always agree with your opinions, but at least you make points worth a few thoughts, so its good to see you dissecting these "good ol' boys" objectively.

Id caution you as well not to rule out Mortimer just yet, I haven't used Molly much, but I can tell you Fresh Meat 2 times in a game(its way easier than you think) and you've bought an entire turn of movement for 7 ss and 2 AP, for me thats been worth it by itself among other additions. Im not saying this is the best thing ever, just worth it, I find that the last thing you want to do with Nicodem's AP is move him.

I find HtW2 is best used against models that get a Positive damage flip built into their weapon, e.g. Ronin, Lilith, Guild Guard (when shooting), even Coryphee, because it uses that perk a bit more in your favor, but still Ive watched the Red Joker get flipped on one of my big guys many a time. Personally I think the Joker rule should stay just as it is, every game out there needs that one absolutely random aspect that either sends you soaring or crashing and burning.

All in all though, good luck and Im looking forward to reading more.

[Golden]

He isn't particularly dangerous to be next to, as his combat & dmg isn't all that great, and even his triggers can be pretty yawn inducing to the model that's threatening him. And once he is locked in combat you can't use his most effective means of healing, which is Live for Pain, as it's a ranged attack.

Seamus might have been about right when the game first came out, but he is swiftly getting left by the roadside as the game progresses. Above all I really wish there was some way to force Seamus' Terrifying through on valid targets, as Seamus' Terror stat is just another minor annoyance in dealing with him, when it could be so much better. Ah well, maybe next edition.

[\QUOTE]

Point #1 If Seamus goes into melee, trade up. Get in on multiple models, swing on 2 for excessive bleeding, making them insignificant, then use a belle to lure him back out.

#2 Try Trail of Fear, Face of Death, and it may not be fluffy, but hire an Onryo for Mark of Jigoku to deal with Immune to Influence.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Your Point #1: I'm speaking totally on a master level. Sending Seamus into Multipe models to make them insignificant *can* occasionally work, but often doesn't, because you need to hit, and you need to have a target that cares if it is insignificant. Even if you make an opponent's best melee monster insignificant it is still a threat, and still will exert control over the board, by being able to kill things. And even if you Lure Seamus out of the combat he tends to just be charged again.

#2: You are firstly assuming that the threat to Seamus is living, and that Seamus goes first. But even assuming that Terrifying is really a very sub par ability unless you can get it to affect multiple susceptible models at once. Because you only need to have one beat stick model pass it in order to still lock Seamus down and kill him. Even when I managed to get Seamus to go Avatar in the past my opponent would just save his card for the beatstick and then kill Seamus where he stood.

As a side note an Onryo offers no assistance for making Seamus' terrifying go through, as living models who are immune to influence are still affected by Terrifying as they are not a defender when making the test, and the Mark of Jigoku cannot make Terrifying affect anything but a living target as the ability Terrifying states it only affects living models. Non living models are not immune to terrifying, they just are not affected by it.

Calmdown's point on what makes a good model, reliability, is in full force here. On paper and considered in a vacuum Seamus has a lot going for him, except for his 2 Cache, once you get using him you really aren't getting that much out of him reliably. His -Wp aura only targets living models, most of which either have the ability to use SS, have stubborn, or Fear Not Death.

His Terrifying again only affects Living Targets and is less of an inconvenience than Harmless, Pitiful, or Irresistible is, as you only need to make the low target number once.

But let's not derail Calmdown's thread any longer, should you wish to continue debating your opinions on a Master that I love, but feel is very low to average in the current environment let's make a new thread. I'm very interested to see how Calmdown does with McMorning as that is one of the regular masters I play against and as far as combat masters go seems very solid at carving things up.

[Calmdown]

First game is about to start; follow it (including pics) on Twitter if you fancy

[Mydnight]

I have a lot of interest with this thread and will definitely be following it. I end up playing McM more than any other master for various reasons (my main opponent and I both love Kirai and have a no-play truce due to how boring things would be).

I don't get on the forums as much as I used to, so I'm curious to see how Von Schill will work out. A friend of mine has my book 2 so I can't get a good look at his stats very easily.

[Blog]

This thread has much win in it. I'll be following this intently. Not to derail the topic again, but I don't know why Seamus isn't considered good... I agree that he wants some stones to have just in case but, he seems pretty good as a terror engine in himself, his avatar and such... Also I've been doing some reading on Kirai... she is crazy good it seems.

[Calmdown]

Battle Report!

Shared Destroy the Evidence vs Cunningstunt/Aidan

I won't go into too much detail, I'll try and keep it broad whilst explaining what went on and what tactics I used.

I took:

McMourning (8ss cache)

Zombie Chihuahua

Molly

Grave Spirit

Dead Rider

4x Night Terror

Aidan took:

Leveticus (5ss)

Molly

Mechanical Rider

Large Steampunk Arachnid

2x Watcher

Canine Remains

Deployment pic:

Centre DtE counter was inside the building; my 3 DtE counters were all around Aidan's deployment area on the top of the pic, two of his were near the bottom of the pic (one in my DZ) and the other was next to the fountain on the left of my DZ.

I had set up first. We were playing Shared Destroy the Evidence. I had McMourning's scheme (which we played wrong, more later) and Stake a Claim on the building with the walkway. Aidan took Assassinate and Leveticus' scheme (die 3 times and be in play at the end of the game).

Turn 1:

I advanced a Night Terror straight ahead and flocked the rest, before moving it off to the right in preparation to contest the evidence counters with the incoming Watcher. Aidan did some Levi shenanigans, killing his dog for a second Waif. I moved more Night Terrors as Aidan advanced his Watchers on both sides, end result being I took the evidence and left two Terrors inside the building and two moving off right to deal with the Watcher, whilst Aidan plonked one Watcher on the bridge and one Watcher on the walkway around the multi-level building. My Grave Spirit attached to the Dead Rider who adjusted purpose to gain fast, before Aidan pointed out that I wouldn't be able to hit the Watcher on the walkway as it was Ht1 and behind a wall; instead, the Rider moved forward and covered the DtE counter with his big threat area of scythe death. Aidan moved some stuff up, including the Mech Rider straight towards the Dead Rider, ready for a rider-showdown next turn. My Molly moved up to the edge of the centre building. The Chihuahua, lacking targets to Wrack, wracked McMourning and then moved, before McMourning Scalpel'd to it and cut it to bits, getting his hp back and ending on 5 counters then moving into the building.

Turn 2:

Aidan won the initiative with a 10, which I wasn't going to stone. His Rider adjusted to Melee Expert/Brutal mode, and charged my Rider. Unfortunately I had a 13 to cheat and Aidan had nothing above an 11, so his charge missed; he flipped much better on his second try, gaining a +ve flip on his damage and a second tome for Brutal, but since I was rocking HtW2 I didnt cheat and his adjusted -ve flip hit again for minimum damage (5 with brutal), 3 after armour. Yowch, Mech Rider hurts.

At this point, I'm thinking that McMourning's scheme is "gain 5 body parts from enemy models". Turns out I was wrong, but I'd likely have had Kill Protegee in any case so the tactic that follows was valid. Dead Rider adjusted to gain fast, hit the Mech Rider, and moved 10" directly behind the centre building before dragging the Rider to his opposite side, essentially around the corner from McMourning. In the actions that followed McMourning moved up and through some terrible flipping and a Red Joker cheat by Aidan, managed to drop the Rider to 1 Wd but not kill it. Ugh. Molly moved into the building and did nothing. My Night Terrors dispersed, one sitting on each of Aidan's DtE counters on the right of the board, the only position in which they can stop a Watcher destroying evidence (due to the 1" melee range and a 30mm base being 1.1"), one moving out towards the counter in Aidan's deployment zone, and one being nuked by Levi through the door and turning into an Abomination. Levi died and did his usual. Aidan's LSPA came back from its advance to defend the DtE counter in his deployment zone from my Night Terror.

Turn 3:

I won initiative, and McMourning activated. He healed the Dead Rider to full with some surgery, and then Dissected the Mechanical Rider. Aidan's LSPA killed my Night Terror. Molly ran away from the Abomination Aidan had dropped next to her inside the building. I moved another Night Terror toward Aidan's deployment zone, leaving one still near the rear DtE counters to defend (I was confident of stopping him getting the left one now, so the right one wouldnt matter, I just wanted to defend the one in my dep. zone). Near the end of the turn the Dead Rider moved to cover the leftmost DtE counter near the fountain and Levi threw some nukes at it, doing a bit of damage but not killing it. Pretty uneventful turn with bad flips all round and a bit of model shuffling.

Turn 4:

Aidan won the initiative with a 13. Levi went to finish the Dead Rider, but I burned all of the high cards in my hand to try and burn up Levi's AP on killing the Rider (including a 13 crow and a Red Joker, both of my summoning cards - which on reflection was a mistake, since Levi wasn't going to threaten more than a nuke on McMourning. I 'm a bit overly cautious around Levi since I've been victim to his staggering damage a few times before). Rider died and Levi was off the table. The board now basically consisted of a few of Aidan's models bunched up around the water pool, but no major threats on the board other than Molly saccing herself to kill stuff. McMourning took a double walk around the corner of the building and soulstoned to summon a Rogue Necromancy within claw range of both Hollow Waifs. His Molly gave it double negative on all flips and tried to nuke it, but the nuke missed. However, even with --ve on flips, it had a +ve thanks to paired claws and a base Cb of 7; it activated and has no problem eating both Hollow Waifs. Aidan now had little on the board and Levi couldn't return, so he conceded.

The game would likely have ended 4-0 had we continued, or 6-0 had I picked a scheme that worked (ie not misplayed McMourning's); I probably wouldnt have been able to get the DtE counter in Aidan's deployment zone before turn 6.

Conclusions:

Molly

We noticed early on that Molly had been errata'd on her card; she can no longer sac herself to kill leaders. Big issue. That massively reduces her in power level in my opinion, she's now a very expensive 9 point utility model without any real threat. Her --ve debuff is great but she is very slow, has very low range on her spells and is incredibly suit reliant (being a huge drain on suits for the rest of your crew). I think its unlikely she'll ever see play in McM again; she'll get a runout with Nico still, though.

Dead Rider

I've had an interesting relationship with Dead Rider over time. I've never liked him a lot, but it's never stopped me running him. Since I've reconsidered him recently and thought about what tricks you can pull with mounted combat and drag along, he's gone up a lot in my estimation, but he still absolutely requires a Grave Spirit to be survivable enough given that he is to all intents and purposes a 7 Wd model for 10 points. His drag shenanigans, fast speed and 3" melee range for covering the objective, as well as soaking up a decent amount of fire, were key in this game.

Night Terrors

What can you really say? These things are so fast and due to their Blind trigger and spirit, will pretty much beat the crap out of any other 3 point objective grabber in a 1v1. They obviated the Watchers and though they didn't get any other DtE counters in the game, one tied up the LSPA for two turns. And of course they swarmed the centre DtE counter on activation 2 and grabbed it on activation 3. Awesome stuff.

McMourning

What can I say? The guy is awesome. Piles of damage, good speed, summons Rogue Necromancies. Didn't do anything amazing here but he does rack up body parts so easily he never has an issue summoning, and a well placed summon wins games. Magicking a 10 point model out of thin air is quite scary.

Second report to follow tomorrow, complete with even more Dead Rider drag shenanigans and even more McMourning scalpeling things to death!

Edited January 25, 2012 by Calmdown

[Cunning]

I'm still trying to work out a decent levi list. I usually end up with a handful of expensive models who get killed too quickly. Flipping the black joker in every turn of the game didn't help much either :-/

[brdparker]

Nice report! I'm rapidly becoming more a fan of McM, and it's great to see the thoughts that go through the head of someone who has more experience with him. On the rules side of things, I've been wondering this for a while:

The Chihuahua, lacking targets to Wrack, wracked McMourning and then moved, before McMourning Scalpel'd to it and cut it to bits, getting his hp back and ending on 5 counters then moving into the building.

So the chihuahua wracked McM and gained a BPC, right? Does the dog gain the counters or Douglas? Or did you then cast (1) Fetch to get the counters to McMourning?

[von Clausewitz]

The Chihuahua, lacking targets to Wrack, wracked McMourning and then moved, before McMourning Scalpel'd to it and cut it to bits, getting his hp back and ending on 5 counters then moving into the building.

Unfortunately this is an illegal move by the good Doctor. Wracked with pain prevents the use of (0) actions in addition to the 2 wounds. As a result McMourning would be unable to scalpel sling after the chihuahua cast it on him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Also, wouldn't the Chihuahua have to spend a (1) action to give the body part counter he just gained to McMorning? You cast Wracked with Pain and then moved, so how did McMorning get the Bodypart the Chihuahua gained?

[Da Git]

by killing it & picking up the BP with the corpse... legit bar the sling (beat me to it!!)

btw. really loving this thread as I am kinda in the same boat, I only have Kirai whom I find makes one of my more regular opponents cry!!

Edited January 25, 2012 by Da O&F Git

[Calmdown]

Unfortunately this is an illegal move by the good Doctor. Wracked with pain prevents the use of (0) actions in addition to the 2 wounds. As a result McMourning would be unable to scalpel sling after the chihuahua cast it on him.

Obviously correct. I'll chalk that one up to 3+ months without McMourning In the end though, he could have moved/killed it/moved for a bpc, difference was minimal as i was swimming in counters this game thanks to the Mech Rider!

Also, wouldn't the Chihuahua have to spend a (1) action to give the body part counter he just gained to McMorning? You cast Wracked with Pain and then moved, so how did McMorning get the Bodypart the Chihuahua gained?

It drops it on death and he picks it up.

btw. really loving this thread as I am kinda in the same boat, I only have Kirai whom I find makes one of my more regular opponents cry!!

Kirai is broken though. The point of this exercise is to *not* play Kirai

[Da Git]

hence why i want to start McMourning.... & my interest in this...

[brdparker]

Also, wouldn't the Chihuahua have to spend a (1) action to give the body part counter he just gained to McMorning? You cast Wracked with Pain and then moved, so how did McMorning get the Bodypart the Chihuahua gained?

The (1) Action that gives stuff to McM only gives Corpse Counters w/i 3". The totem can be any distance away from McM.

The (1) Spell "Fetch" gives BPC and/or CC's to a friendly McMourning within 2." To the same effect, but there are subtle differences.

To the other note, so then the Chihuahua IS able to hold BPC's? Is he then also able to use them (such as losing one to cast (1) Rancid Transplant)?

[Calmdown]

The (1) Action that gives stuff to McM only gives Corpse Counters w/i 3". The totem can be any distance away from McM.

The (1) Spell "Fetch" gives BPC and/or CC's to a friendly McMourning within 2." To the same effect, but there are subtle differences.

To the other note, so then the Chihuahua IS able to hold BPC's? Is he then also able to use them (such as losing one to cast (1) Rancid Transplant)?

Any model is allowed to hold and type of counter or token. The only restriction is to picking them up off the floor - you must have an appropriate ability/trait to do so (such as Graverobber, Scavenger, a spell that uses them, etc).

And yes, if you were so inclined, the Chihuahua could Rancid Transplant if it had gained a bpc. It has the counter, nothing in the rules stops it using it.