Is collodi the hamelin killer?

[011121]

Hamelin works mainly by making the enemy crew insignificant, but Collodi makes his dolls significant. Which takes precedence? I would think Collodi would since it's, well not actually an aura but it seems to act like one. In other words Collodi's ability seems to be continuously acting while Hamelin's is a one off kind of thing. I would think he could make a doll insignificant for a second but then it'd be converted right back to significant by Collodi.

If so that makes collodi a good choice to take on the piper and give him a right good thrashing.

[Thechosenone]

Hamelin, being Hamelin, will still mess Collodi up. Once all marionettes within 6 inches of Collodi are dealt with, which is not hard. Impetus rats, blight counters, Hamelin just pole slapping them all work. He can pipe them away or into killing each other. He can Obedience them into killing each other. Or, for the easy as cheesecake Collodi kill, he can just irresistible lure the entire height one crew toward him and kill them by cheating in or flipping with even moderate damage that can't be modified by armor.

Heck, if Nix is close enough the dolls are getting a neg to their flip to resist the Lure. Because of how Hamelin draws cards he's more likely to have only decent cards in his hand.

Sure, The dolls can't move more than 8 inches away. But if Hameline gets within 8 inches its over. Or he can just send rats and catchers to do it.

And the flip side to this is that i don't see anything Collodi can do to stop Hamelin's crew. Like, nothing?

[Gollum528]

I can imagine collodi doing well Against Hamelin. One of the best ways to deal with Hamelin is lots of chain activations or lots of small hits focused om key pieces. Another thing that I think would help Collodi is that he normally doesn't like to work alone. Basically I think Zoraida plus Collodi would be a very good match against Hamelin.

To the original question, it all depends on the wording. Negative always overrides positive and if it's a tie then I believe the acting player decides.

[Sandwich]

Collodi can wreck Hamelin pretty hard.

He's just so incredibly fast that he can straight avoid Hamelin.

His Dolls are all Ht 1 so there won't be much direct Dg to Hamelin but the rest of his crew are up for grabs.

I've seen Collodi destroy Hamelin more than once.

[Omenbringer]

Hamelin works mainly by making the enemy crew insignificant, but Collodi makes his dolls significant. Which takes precedence? I would think Collodi would since it's, well not actually an aura but it seems to act like one. In other words Collodi's ability seems to be continuously acting while Hamelin's is a one off kind of thing. I would think he could make a doll insignificant for a second but then it'd be converted right back to significant by Collodi.

If so that makes collodi a good choice to take on the piper and give him a right good thrashing.

Collodi's Living Puppets ability would override (at least while he is on the table) Hamelin's (and the rats) ability to make them insignificant.

As for being good against Hamelin, though there might be some potential, the easiest way to deal with it is just to target Collodi vice his Dolls (without him they lose a lot and of course the Marionettes go away if he isn't on the board). A rat catcher (who is still somewhat protected by Bully from the Dolls) and swarm should be able to either drop him in short order or seriously deplete his marionettes (because of shifting of attacks). And of course because Hamelin's crew has a lot of ways of either denying (Voracious Rats) or removing (Hungry Rats) counters, in the war of attrition Collodi wil be unable to replace his losses while Hamelins swarm will enlarge. Lastly, though Collodi can provide a number of buffs to his dolls majority of them are singular where as a lot of Hamelin's debuffs are :auras and :pulses

[011121]

Just brainstorming

Wicked dolls can summon another doll with murderous each time they kill a rat (max once per doll per activation). It's a zero action but imagine this sequence-

Collodi pounces on a cluster of rats and a ratcatcher. First turn they kill the ratcatcher (his armor is of little use against massed small attacks, his def is 4 vs Cb of 4, andflipping or cheating a 6 to pass ruffian isn't that hard). The rats then have a hard time doing anything due to wicked intentions (they have to Df->14, requiring a 10 for each, or can only walk/pass). Next turn the wicked dolls rip them apart getting another few wicked dolls.

Lather-rinse-repeat. My understanding is that the ratcatchers are pretty important to Hamelin's crew.

Similarly the stolen would be easy prey for Collodi unless kept near to Hamelin himself. Also Nix who could be a good target for kill protege. If Hamelin keeps everyone all together it could be a very tough nut to crack but it leaves ope the possibility of simply outmaneuvering him as Collodi is much faster than Hamelin.

I'm not saying it'd be easy but I think Collodi might do better than many other masters against Hamelin. It'd depend on using the superior maneuverability and striking at the key models anytime they get too far from Hamelin for him to interfere.

[Thechosenone]

Dolls can't target the rat catcher because of bully.

And look, I want Collodi to win as much as the next guy but like i said above, anything that gets within 8 inches of Hamelin dies to lure. Simple as that. Insig doesn't even matter.

The best Collodi can do is play for the strategies and run away. Which is pretty much the best thing anyone can do against Hamelin. It's like if Hamelin was playing against Gremlins. Same thing with Collodi except you replace ranged fire with movement tricks.

Hamelin is pretty much the Battle Fleet Gothic Necrons of Malifaux ya know? So hard to kill and kinda not that much fun to play against because they ignore the basic rules and premise of the game.

[Sandwich]

Rat Catchers do not have Bully. They have Ruffian: Ht 1 and Insignificant models targeting this model must win a Wp->13 duel or the action immediatly fails.

Meaning it's possible to kill them, but good luck.

I thought we were talking about winning against Hamelin, not just fighting him.

Collodi is garbage versus Hamelin in a straight fight.

Voracious Rats overrides (0)Murderous.

Hamelin is untouchable and the Rat Catchers are hard as hell to hit, especially because the Stolen will be dropping your Crew's Wp by 2 constantly if you're actually trying to fight him.

Hamelin's (1)Irresistible Lure will absolutely destroy Collodi's crew if you bring the fight to him and after his Rat Swarm grows to 20 rats or so after destroying your dollystorm, Collodi is boned.

- - - -

Collodi can, however, powerown Hamelin stupid easily because he can move something like 40" in a single turn, far beyond Hamelin's reach and is NEVER insignificant so will NEVER have a reason to confront the Soulless directly.

[Omenbringer]

Just brainstorming

Wicked dolls can summon another doll with murderous each time they kill a rat (max once per doll per activation). It's a zero action but imagine this sequence-

Only works if the Rat Catcher or Hamelin is out of range for Voracious Rats (which prevents Murderous from creating another Wicked Doll).

Collodi pounces on a cluster of rats and a ratcatcher. First turn they kill the ratcatcher (his armor is of little use against massed small attacks, his def is 4 vs Cb of 4, andflipping or cheating a 6 to pass ruffian isn't that hard).

Base blocking with the rats prevents this from being effective and preserves the Armor 2.

The rats then have a hard time doing anything due to wicked intentions (they have to Df->14, requiring a 10 for each, or can only walk/pass).

This is when Hamelin comes in and does his thing with Irresistible Lure slaughtering your Wicked Dolls on Moderate or higher Dg.

Next turn the wicked dolls rip them apart getting another few wicked dolls.

See above.

Similarly the stolen would be easy prey for Collodi unless kept near to Hamelin himself.

Hamelin recieves a huge benefit when these "free" models are killed.

Also Nix who could be a good target for kill protege.

Nix isn't exactly an easy kill.

If Hamelin keeps everyone all together it could be a very tough nut to crack but it leaves ope the possibility of simply outmaneuvering him as Collodi is much faster than Hamelin.

The Rat swarms have an amazing threat range.

I'm not saying it'd be easy but I think Collodi might do better than many other masters against Hamelin. It'd depend on using the superior maneuverability and striking at the key models anytime they get too far from Hamelin for him to interfere.

Collodi suffers from "Key model" syndrome more than Hamelin does, since he cant be brought back and he is the sole provider of buffs for the Dolls (where as Hamelin's entire crewprovides buffs and debuffs and most of his models can be brought back easily).

Damn formating allowing Sandwich to post first!

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[011121]

Rat Catchers do not have Bully. They have Ruffian: Ht 1 and Insignificant models targeting this model must win a Wp->13 duel or the action immediatly fails.

Meaning it's possible to kill them, but good luck.

Not that hard, only requires a 6 when you consider Collodi's buff of the dolls Wp.

Collodi is garbage versus Hamelin in a straight fight.

I'm talking about playing malifaux against him, which is rarely a straight fight.

Voracious Rats overrides (0)Murderous.

Hamelin is untouchable and the Rat Catchers are hard as hell to hit, especially because the Stolen will be dropping your Crew's Wp by 2 constantly if you're actually trying to fight him.

Right which is why I said you kill the ratcatcher and then turn the rats into wicked dolls. The stolen only debuff Wp when killed so choose your moment (after killing the guy with ruffian.

[011121]

Only works if the Rat Catcher or Hamelin is out of range for Voracious Rats (which prevents Murderous from creating another Wicked Doll).

Yes, see above, you kill the ratatcher 1st.

Base blocking with the rats prevents this from being effective and preserves the Armor 2.

How many rats can a hamelin player really start with? Enough to block off all ratcatchers 360 degrees? Collodi can pretty easily make a first or at worst second round strike.

This is when Hamelin comes in and does his thing with Irresistible Lure slaughtering your Wicked Dolls on Moderate or higher Dg.

Again like I said it works as long as hamelin has spread out a bit. He's pretty pokey and irresitible lure is way less effective against Collodi since the marrionettes won't move more than 8" away. Not to mention that with Collodi's buff the dolls all have Wp 7, making it an even match. If he stays clumped up then yeah there's no real way to crack the nut but depending on the strategies you may not have to.

Hamelin recieves a huge benefit when these "free" models are killed.

What's that?

Nix isn't exactly an easy kill.

It's really easy for Collodi to dismember a teddy in one turn, just using marionettes, not even counting wicked dolls. Teddy has 1 less def but 50% more wounds than Nix as well as HTW2. I can't see any reason he'd be even a speed bump.

The Rat swarms have an amazing threat range.

it looks like they have a similar mechanic to the dolls whereby they can move to another swarm allowing them to leapfrog. Difference is they take a wound to do it (and only have 2) and they're slow, meaning once they arrive they get 1 attack at most. Plus if the rats move too far from hamelin (who's reasonably fast for a person but a complete slug compared to collodi) then the rats are just murderous fodder.

Collodi suffers from "Key model" syndrome more than Hamelin does, since he cant be brought back and he is the sole provider of buffs for the Dolls (where as Hamelin's entire crewprovides buffs and debuffs and most of his models can be brought back easily).

No argument there, the difference though is collodi's extreme maneuverability means he can choose where and when to fight and there's really nothing Hamelin can do about that. He can send out rat swarms but they lack the punch to do much and are very vulnerable on their own. He can stay near his rat catchers but then he's basically tied down to them (and they appear to be slower than he is). I might well be missing something here but on paper this looks very doable for collodi with a good selection of strategy and scheme.

[Omenbringer]

Not that hard, only requires a 6 when you consider Collodi's buff of the dolls Wp.

It requires a 7+ to beat with the Wicked Dolls Wp of 5 and Collodi's buff (ties dont win in simple or opposed Wp Duels). And putting Collodi within 5" of a Rat Catcher and Rat Swarm (in order to provide the Wp Buff to the dolls which is 4) is going to result in either a dead Collodi or a lot more rats from dead Marionettes when he starts redirecting the strikes to them.

Right which is why I said you kill the ratcatcher and then turn the rats into wicked dolls.

Base blocking the Rat Catcher with malifaux Rats easily prevents attacks of 1 on the Rat catcher (and only takes 6 Rats to accomplish). This will also preserve the granted Armor 2 (since this crew wont be able to kill enough rats before they are replaced by Voracious Rats) and heals 2 Wds on the Rat Catcher (and all the other vermin within 3" thanks to Devoured) every time you kill one.

The stolen only debuff Wp when killed so choose your moment (after killing the guy with ruffian.

And produce another Rat and the possibility of Paralyze on the attacking model with yet another Wp 13 duel (so another 7+ if buffed by Collodi otherwise 9+)

[Omenbringer]

Yes, see above, you kill the ratatcher 1st.

How many rats can a hamelin player really start with? Enough to block off all ratcatchers 360 degrees? Collodi can pretty easily make a first or at worst second round strike.

See my above post on how easy it is to prevent models that dont have 2 from even targetting him, it only takes 6 to completely encapsulate a Rat Catcher. Though it can be done with less since you dont actually have to encapsulate him just make it so enemy models dont have enough room for their bases to move between the Rats (can be done with 4 fairly well, 6 can prevent even 2 attacks from getting at them).

Not to mention that with Collodi's buff the dolls all have Wp 7, making it an even match.

The Wp buff is a 4, so either you clump your crew up or they are easy prey.

It's really easy for Collodi to dismember a teddy in one turn, just using marionettes, not even counting wicked dolls. Teddy has 1 less def but 50% more wounds than Nix as well as HTW2. I can't see any reason he'd be even a speed bump.

Nix has Spirit, a great healing mechanic, and an amazing debuff aura that pretty much guarantees you'll be flipping for everything unless you focus (and even then it is a straight flip). Teddy does not have these things.

it looks like they have a similar mechanic to the dolls whereby they can move to another swarm allowing them to leapfrog. Difference is they take a wound to do it (and only have 2) and they're slow, meaning once they arrive they get 1 attack at most. Plus if the rats move too far from hamelin (who's reasonably fast for a person but a complete slug compared to collodi) then the rats are just murderous fodder.

I take it you haven't seen the Rat Swarms run by a Rat Catcher. They provide the support (as far as Rats are concerned) and allow Hamelin to focus on other things.

No argument there, the difference though is collodi's extreme maneuverability means he can choose where and when to fight and there's really nothing Hamelin can do about that. He can send out rat swarms but they lack the punch to do much and are very vulnerable on their own. He can stay near his rat catchers but then he's basically tied down to them (and they appear to be slower than he is). I might well be missing something here but on paper this looks very doable for collodi with a good selection of strategy and scheme.

You are not taking the Rat Catchers into account (they replace Hamelin as Rat Controllers), Hamelin and Nix are free to focus on the more important threats.

Also Hamelin is hardly an easy kill, Df 5 with 12 Wds in addition to the ability to base block like the Rat Catchers, use Soulstones, and of course the ability to benefit if you chose to cheat fate.

This of course is before considering that killing him only means something if you can get rid of all the Stolen on the field, otherwise he just comes back (with less Ca but still as nasty because of the debuffs he can inflict and the full control hand he has).

Lastly if you are in melee with him moderate damage kills the Wicked Dolls and Marionettes, while severe kills Collodi in one hit creating yet another Rat for him (and because he can ignore or flips with a simple 0 action he can always cheat in a severe damage card).

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[magicpockets]

Nix has Spirit, a great healing mechanic, and an amazing debuff aura that pretty much guarantees you'll be flipping for everything unless you focus (and even then it is a straight flip). Teddy does not have these things.

Remember Marionettes and Wicked Dolls have paired weapons so they only drop to a straight flip against Nix. The problem is that they have Cb 4 vs Nix's Df 5 and each time they miss him in melee he'll heal a wound, so on averages they will struggle to kill him.

[Shank Seamus!]

That's some hefty theory 'faux... Any volunteers for battle reps? I don't have a hamelin player yet but id love to see the overall score..

[Omenbringer]

I have had plenty of experience with and against Hamelin (So have Magicpockets and Sandwich). This isn't theory, I can tell you that Hamelin and a vanilla crew (Rats and Rat Catchers, Nix and a The Stolen) will be able to counter or shut down everything that collodi can do (even with his mobility).

[micahwc]

Agreed. Play the game against each other and see how it turns out.

[Necromorph]

Objective wise collodi is much more maneuverable than hamelin and will be able to get his strats done rather easily. However surviving will be the issue. Irresistible lure will see his crew taken out rather quickly and the dolls will not be able to Target hamelin. Stitched are little threat as hamelin has high enough wp and can Ss his way out of gambles.

[Oshova]

If you are playing Destroy the Evidence, or something like that where you can rush out and complete it then run away and take the 4 points, then you might be alright. But there are equally mobile, more durable options available to Neverborn. You want to take the minimum amount of Ht 1 models as you can against Hamelin. Otherwise they will just die.

[Omenbringer]

If you are playing Destroy the Evidence, or something like that where you can rush out and complete it then run away and take the 4 points, then you might be alright. But there are equally mobile, more durable options available to Neverborn. You want to take the minimum amount of Ht 1 models as you can against Hamelin. Otherwise they will just die.

You mean the strategy that requires you to place one of the evidence markers completely within Hamelins deployment zone? His crew can definately protect that one pretty well (by either camping one of those Rat Catchers and his rat swarm or Hamelin and a rat swarm right on top of the marker during deployment) and deny you the full 4 VP for completing the strategy. Mobility or not you aren't getting that one from him with Collodi and the dolls.

[Oshova]

The Hamelin crew has to move at some point in the game (Objectives permitting). With the mobility you have, you can swoop in there at the most opportune moment, and hope for the best. I'm not saying it's a certainty, and I'm definitely not saying to take Collodi as a master against Hamelin. But I would still consider him as an option depending on what your objectives are.

[Omenbringer]

He really doesn't have to move all that much for most Strategies and Schemes, after all his entire crew is significant so can complete objectives without him. With a pretty vanilla list

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued

--

3 Pool

• Nix, the Bull Terrier
  [7ss]
  
  
• Rat Catcher
  [5ss]
  
  
• Rat Catcher
  [5ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  

You can effectively deny your opponent VP's and complete your objectives with just the Rat Catchers and Nix. The Rats may not be as fast as Collodi, but they definately aren't slow either.

Also remember that this will only be his starting list, turn one he'll drop a The Stolen, and of course everytime he kills your models he'll grab another rat. Play a few games against him and you'll see that Hamelin and his crew really do have answers for almost everything that can be brought against them.

[Oshova]

I've played a lot of games against Hamelin (and even done well in some), but that still wouldn't put me off taking Collodi if I really wanted to. He's good in certain situations (even against Hamelin), I'm not saying he's the best, or even great. And I'm definitely not saying he will survive the game every time. But he will more than likely net you a good amount of VPs before biting the dust. Obviously this all depends on what master you are taking him with.

[Omenbringer]

Understandable, he may have a slightly better chance against a typical Hamelin list in play, but a win is far from guaranteed. I would also argue that taking him as a Henchman would actually reduce his benefit since you now have to pay for Collodi (reducing the number of overall models he can buff and reducing the potential to out activate Hamelin).

[011121]

See my above post on how easy it is to prevent models that dont have 2 from even targetting him, it only takes 6 to completely encapsulate a Rat Catcher.

Is it typical for a hamelin player to start with 6 rats per rat catcher (plus any for Hamelin himself)? I'm honestly asking because it seems like a lot. One set of rats plus catcher is 17ss. 2 of those sets means you have nothing else for a 35ss game (and a soulstone pool of 1).

The Wp buff is a 4, so either you clump your crew up or they are easy prey.

My general experience is you do clump up all the dolls around collodi. He's the lynchpin that lets them move. If you've moved a long distance some of the marionettes will be left behind but the strike force clusters with collodi.

Nix has Spirit, a great healing mechanic, and an amazing debuff aura that pretty much guarantees you'll be flipping for everything unless you focus (and even then it is a straight flip). Teddy does not have these things.

I'll have to try gaming this out because I'm just not seeing how Nix possibly survives.

Also Hamelin is hardly an easy kill, Df 5 with 12 Wds in addition to the ability to base block like the Rat Catchers, use Soulstones, and of course the ability to benefit if you chose to cheat fate.

I wasn't talking about killing Hamelin. I was talking about killing his crew if they move away from him and doing strategies if they don't. I fully believe that actually killing hamelin would be very hard for collodi.