Picking Up Corpse Counters

[Tokaji]

Hey all-

Trying to get an answer to a question that came up at my LGS. Does a model with the graverobber ability need to be the active model to pick up a corpse counter? From my understanding, this would seem to be the case, since most of the picking up references are in terms of walking over or coming into contact with the counter. The other option is that just by being in contact with the counter, it is automatically collected by the model, which causes some problems in my mind. However, we can't find firm evidence for or against.

This came up due to a Malifaux Rat's activation killing an enemy model, the owning player dropping the counter right in contact with a gravrobber, and the Rat wanting to destroy the counter before it could be picked up by the Ressers.

Thanks in advance!

Edited December 20, 2011 by Tokaji

[Clement]

The RM says "A model touching or moving over a Counter can choose to immediately gain that counter if it is eligible to do so."

The graverobber characteristic only says "they can be picked up and used by models with the Graverobber characteristic."

I'd say no it doesn't need to be the active model. Your Graverobber is touching the counter in question, that's the only requirement.

[Kael Hate]

The RM says "A model touching or moving over a Counter can choose to immediately gain that counter if it is eligible to do so."

The graverobber characteristic only says "they can be picked up and used by models with the Graverobber characteristic."

I'd say no it doesn't need to be the active model. Your Graverobber is touching the counter in question, that's the only requirement.

How does it split when 2 opposing models are touching the counter? Say a Canine Remains instead of a Rat in the example given.

[Clement]

How does it split when 2 opposing models are touching the counter? Say a Canine Remains instead of a Rat in the example given.

Assuming the corpse counter is touching both models, it would be the active player (the Canine Remains) who gets first chance to pick up the counter.

[Tokaji]

Then what happens if the active model isn't a graverobber but the counter has to be dropped touching two opposing graverobbers? Who gets precedence? That argument is exactly why I say it needs to be active.

[Buhallin]

Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player...

Emphasis mine. It doesn't have to be the model that was active, just the player.

So if I have a Canine in base contact with a model, and you have Sebastian in base contact with the same model, and I activate Seamus to kill that model, my Canine gets first dibs for picking up the corpse counter, because I'm the active player.

[Tokaji]

Emphasis mine. It doesn't have to be the model that was active, just the player.

So if I have a Canine in base contact with a model, and you have Sebastian in base contact with the same model, and I activate Seamus to kill that model, my Canine gets first dibs for picking up the corpse counter, because I'm the active player.

So does this mean that, in the original example, the Malifaux Rat would get a chance to destroy the counter via Hungry Rats before it is picked up?

[Buhallin]

So does this mean that, in the original example, the Malifaux Rat would get a chance to destroy the counter via Hungry Rats before it is picked up?

I don't have the text/wording for the Rat handy, but so long as it's an immediate ability, I think yes.

[Tokaji]

--(0) Hungry Rats: Sacrifice all Corpse and Scrap Counters within 6"--

That's the exact wording.

[Judgeman]

--(0) Hungry Rats: Sacrifice all Corpse and Scrap Counters within 6"--

That's the exact wording.

The "immediate" effect from graverobber would apply first before the player could do hungry rats.

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm, I find it a bit controversial. Picking up counters is not an action, but it still, IMHO, require the model to be activated.

Malifaux does not provide for models acting during other models activation without very explicit permission and there's simply none.

I don't think picking up a counter is an effect, the rules for effect timing do not apply here. Dropping a counter is also not an effect as it doesn't change the state of any of the models on the table - it is simply one of the results of a model getting killed, executed according to the rules for counters, but not an effect.

An effect may modify how the model drops the counters, IMHO (for example Dead Rider's ability to drop Scrap Counters instead of Corpse Counters or Flesh Construct ability making it drop Corpse Counters only, despite being a Construct), but the very act of counter-dropping is all another story.

In other words, all the conflicts mentioned in this thread are pretty much impossible to resolve with standard rules if you allow models to pick up counters out of their turn.

On the other hand if you assume the model needs to be activating, or at the very least acting (through Obey, for example) to pick up the counters, it all works very smoothly.

That's how I play it for the lack of any clearer ruling. The simpler (game-play wise) solution that requires less rule-bending wins, IMO.

[Tokaji]

I completely agree. I find it counter intuitive to the nature of the game, and against what I would consider to be the purpose of some abilities. Any of the anti-resser abilities, for instance, become slightly useless at that point.

Taken in terms of fluff, how does it make sense for a model that isn't activating to be able to chop up a body into usable parts? That takes concentration and ability. Still really waiting on a Marshall to judge this one.

I'd also like to see reference to the guidelines on dropping corpse counters, as there really aren't any in the RM.

[Oshova]

I play placement of counters like Replace. So the player causing the Replace chooses placement. So in this case, if you kill a model, you can choose where to place the counter(s). But I can't find anywhere in the rules that it tells you what to do (other than when dropping counters upon death).

[Clement]

I completely agree. I find it counter intuitive to the nature of the game, and against what I would consider to be the purpose of some abilities. Any of the anti-resser abilities, for instance, become slightly useless at that point.

Taken in terms of fluff, how does it make sense for a model that isn't activating to be able to chop up a body into usable parts? That takes concentration and ability. Still really waiting on a Marshall to judge this one.

I'd also like to see reference to the guidelines on dropping corpse counters, as there really aren't any in the RM.

While I'd love to see a marshal weight in also, I think this might be overstating the case. Specifically, this would mean that your opponent needs to keep a graverobber in base contact with all models at all times (which means actually 2 graverobbers for any 1+ non-graverobbers, so everyone has one OTHER graverobber in contact with them). Then find a way to move this knot of models so that at no point do they ever get "exposed" not next to their corpse minder.

How can you look at a cluster of 3+ models like that and not want to drop blasts on it...

[Q'iq'el]

I'd also like to see reference to the guidelines on dropping corpse counters, as there really aren't any in the RM.

Basic rules are with the Graverober and Scavenger characteristic description at the beginning of the Book.

Then there are rules for Counters on the page 10 (IIRC). No book with me right now, so I can't check it, but I think the last paragraph refers to how the counters should be placed.

Also the entire rule for Counters contains the rules quoted in this thread - for example what "eligibility" means and that the models can pick up counters if they walk over or touch them, if they are eligible. The only problem is they don't allow models explicitly to conduct these operations outside of their own activation.

[Buhallin]

A model touching or moving over a Counter can choose to immediately gain that Counter if it is eligible to do so.

There is no requirement there that a model be active or activating.

Malifaux does not provide for models acting during other models activation without very explicit permission and there's simply none.

Malifaux doesn't provide for models acting AT ALL, EVER, without very explicit permission. But the above seems to me to qualify as pretty explicit permission. What are the conditions? That the model be touching or moving over a counter - nothing else. What can it do? Immediately gain that counter.

I'm honestly not sure where you're coming from on this one, Q, but you have to either be saying that the above rule has some timing restriction which isn't apparent, or models aren't qualifying for that opportunity for some reason. Can you elaborate a bit more, maybe?

I completely agree. I find it counter intuitive to the nature of the game, and against what I would consider to be the purpose of some abilities. Any of the anti-resser abilities, for instance, become slightly useless at that point.

Useless? Hardly. Trust me, corpse counters end up on the ground quite often.

Taken in terms of fluff, how does it make sense for a model that isn't activating to be able to chop up a body into usable parts? That takes concentration and ability. Still really waiting on a Marshall to judge this one.

McMourning is really, REALLY good at what he does? But even then, it's a poor comparison, because Body Parts does explicitly require that the exchange happen during his activation.

[Q'iq'el]

There is no requirement there that a model be active or activating.

Malifaux doesn't provide for models acting AT ALL, EVER, without very explicit permission. But the above seems to me to qualify as pretty explicit permission. What are the conditions? That the model be touching or moving over a counter - nothing else. What can it do? Immediately gain that counter.

It's not an ability or a trigger which enables models to pick up counters, but the Counter itself. These things (abilities and triggers) have their own rules that allow them to interrupt the flow of the game to execute an action. The wording doesn't require any further permissions, because the basic rules for abilities and triggers, as far as I remember, allow for that.

Here we have two characteristics (Scavenger and Graverobber) that allow models to pick up and use their respective counters. There's no provision for characteristics to interrupt the flow of the game, as far as I understand.

Secondly, "pick up" is neither an action or an effect. It is something allowed for by Counters rules from page 10, but that's it. It's not a conditional sentence that triggers a Pick Up, because we are not dealing with abilities that may trigger whenever the conditions are met. The rule merely describes how the Counters are to be picked. In fact the only condition applicable verifies if the model is indeed eligible for picking up the Counters and that's it.

To use the closest example, if a Strategy allow models to interact with the piece of terrain in b2b contact, the models don't get to interact as soon as another models pushes them into b2b contact with the terrain. They need their own activation for that.

Obviously, Interact is also a well defined action requiring 1 AP, but if Pick Up is close to something in this game in character (as it isn't precisely defined) it is a special action available only in specific circumstances... rather than a conditional ability or effect. That may be no more than my impression, but there's very little to base the interpretation on.

In my opinion that means there is no explicit permission to do it during opponent's activation. A permission, perhaps (controversial without ruling), but definitely not explicit, as it doesn't say it allows for interruption of the time flow. IMHO it is no more than a permission to pick up counters in the model's own activation (otherwise it wouldn't be able to do even that and end up carrying only these counters which were placed in its inventory directly by the spell).

The fact, that you cannot resolve conflict arising from two opposing Graverobbers being in b2b contact when a Corpse Counter drops is the best indicator of this. You cannot use the timing rules from the beginning of the RM, as these apply only to Effects (and picking up is not an effect according to effect's definition - it doesn't modify model's status in any way).

The fact that you have no conflicts or issues of this kind whatsoever when you limit Pick up to the models' activation is IMO a decent indication of the RAI here. Would the designers intend for models to be able to pick up counters at any time, they'd put in the rules resolving any possible conflicts, but there's not even a mention of such possibility. That can only be explained by the Designers not seeing how such a conflict might even happen (as in their minds picking up would happen only during activation).

Obviously, it is more or less speculation and some extrapolations, but at least I think I'm using the rules in somewhat disciplined way. I just think that assuming it is something models do on their own, so during their activation, creates less problems - seeing how complex the things get on the other side of the barricade, I think it is the right approach.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Twisted Metal]

Ok here is another quick question regarding corpse couner. If a master picks up a counter can that master target that counter for a spell? For instance Levi's entropic transformation which dosent state discard a counter but target it.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Twisted Metal

[Tokaji]

Ok here is another quick question regarding corpse couner. If a master picks up a counter can that master target that counter for a spell? For instance Levi's entropic transformation which dosent state discard a counter but target it.

Rules Manual Pg 14When an effect requires a target, the following should be determined in order:

- First, check that the item in question is in the targeting model's LoS

The answer is no, a carried counter does not meet the first requirement.

[Q'iq'el]

Tha models have LoS to themselves and technically a carried counter should be placed in b2b with its carrier, on the table. I'm not sure if the case is as clear cut.

[Buhallin]

Tha models have LoS to themselves and technically a carried counter should be placed in b2b with its carrier' date=' on the table. I'm not sure if the case is as clear cut.[/quote']

This is not correct. Counters are not on the table, and they certainly aren't in B2B with the carrier. Page 18 covers how to use counters, and pretty clearly allows models to use counters they are carrying.

On the original - sorry, Q, but I think you're pretty much just making rules up out of whole cloth at this point. You're creating a restriction on the rules as presented in the counter section, and you haven't got any actual references to back that up. The closest you get is declaring that gaining a counter (which is the actual term used, not "pick up") can't be an effect - but again, that's an assertion with no actual rules support.

[Tokaji]

I actually think that a close reading of the rule for gaining counters supports Q's assertion.

RM Pg 18: A model touching or moving over a Counter may choose to immediately gain that counter.

Choice, by its nature, denotes action. Since it specifically states that it is the model's choice, and this implies action, we must naturally assume that the model must be active to make this choice.

I also think that in the case of having multiple Graverobbers in B2B with a dying model would fall under the last bullet point of the timing section, even though it's technically not an effect:

RM Pg 6: Any effects that are not controlled by either player ... are resolved last and affect models simultaneously.

This creates a whole slew of other problems that are, again, not covered by the rules.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Tokaji

[Buhallin]

Choice, by its nature, denotes action. Since it specifically states that it is the model's choice, and this implies action, we must naturally assume that the model must be active to make this choice.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Many, MANY models have optional effects which they MAY activate outside their activation. That is just as much a choice, and it is in no way bound to the model being active. Just skim the abilities, I'm sure you can find examples.

I also think that in the case of having multiple Graverobbers in B2B with a dying model would fall under the last bullet point of the timing section, even though it's technically not an effect

What makes you think it's technically not an effect? EVERYTHING in Malifaux is an effect. Damage is an effect. Moving is an effect. Gaining counters is an effect, and destroying counters is an effect. Anything that changes the state of the game is an effect. The wording here is pretty much exactly the same as any other effect which causes a model to gain a counter. How is "gain 1 Blood counter" an effect, but "immediately gain that counter" not an effect?

If you want to get really, REALLY picky, the definition for effect says "a game term referring to anything that changes a model's state" and you could ALMOST argue that something that changes a counter isn't an effect. That might cause problems for something like Last Rites, that hits counters only, but gaining a counter changes the state of the model picking it up - it has one more counter than it did previously.

[Ratty]

OK this is very simple.. When a model dies it leaves the counters it generates in a small pile directly under the center of the base. At any point if a model is touching these counters it may choose to immediately pick them up. If two models try to pick up at the same time [iE two models are in BtB with a 30mm model that dies] the player whose activation it is has priority and may choose a model to pick it up first.

If a model has to target a Counter it must be on the table and in LoS.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Ratty

[Tokaji]

I will concede the point of gaining a counter being an effect and thus being effected by the timing order and such. I will not concede that picking up a counter does not require activity by the model.

You had previously stated that in the counter section it states that counters are gained. However, in the Graverobber description, it states:

RM pg9: These counters can be picked up and used by models with the Graverobber Characteristic.

Emphasis mine. Many other models do have abilities that can be activated out of turn, but all of them specifically give permission to do so. Picking up a counter does not give permission. Given, it does not explicitly state that you can't, but that seems to be the exception that proves the rule, not the one that breaks it. If every other ability that activates outside of the model's activation states that it can, via the rules or the ability text(think defensive triggers), why would picking up a counter be an exception?

[Buhallin]

If every other ability that activates outside of the model's activation states that it can, via the rules or the ability text(think defensive triggers), why would picking up a counter be an exception?

Ratty's (thankfully) cleared up the core question, but I'm going to take one more stab at this to explain why.

Models are not inherently prevented from taking actions outside their activation, nor does it require some magical incantation of specific explicitness to allow them to do so. The rules define when models can do things - move, strike, charge, gain counters, etc etc. In many cases, these rules are tied to actions, which are in turn tied to activation.

Assuming no other abilities, why can't a model charge outside its activation? It's not because it's outside its activation - a model with no AP left cannot charge either, even if it's during its activation. It cannot charge outside its activation because nothing says that it can. Why can't I charge without taking a Charge action or using some other ability that triggers a charge? Because nothing says I can.

And that's the core of the issue that you and Q are both reading wrong. If you can find a rule that inherently restricts what a model can do outside its activation, feel free to quote it. But there isn't any such rule.

So to this back to the original issue, why can a model pick up a counter outside its activation? Because the counter rules say "at any time" and there's no other restriction placed on that.