Obey vs. Alpha

[NBmaster]

This has prob. been asked before but cannot find a thread on it, but why can a Master be Alpha'd but not Obeyed? Seems like almost the same thing to me, if not more broken then Obeying Masters would be.Thanks for the help in this matter.

[Lucidicide]

They're different abilities. Alpha takes a (2) action, is unique to one model, and requires the enemy to be a Beast. There is a lot that goes into it. Suffice it to say, while powerful, it is also very limited.

[NBmaster]

Yes but when Marcus can make any model a Beast then Alpha them and then take an entire action with said model, Master, its as if Marcus himself gets 2 activations making it way more powerful than you are letting on. Especially when he can basically companion said model as it would be a beast and then activate that model and also taking that models activation from you. So its kinda like activating 3 times. Don't mean to argue i just don't think you explained it well enough by just saying its limited. Obey is actually very limited compared to alpha as you can only use it once per turn, it only gives you a 1 action or charge, and you cant do it to Masters for some reason which has also not been explained as of yet.

[ukrocky]

I've used Marcus in over 50 games and never once used Alpha.

The problem with Alpha is you are trading 2 of Marcus' actions, for usually another models 2. And if you're doing it against a master it comes down to who flips higher on a soulstone, and if Marcus loses, he's just wasted his whole activation.

I have no idea how you can say that Marcus gets 3 activations, totally not seeing that one! And to companion it, it has to be a beast when they activate, which it isnt, or in baby Marcus then he has to Feral (0), Alpha (2) and then (0) to let it activate, using at least 2 soulstones to get Feral and Alpha off, and both HAVE to get off, which are both on a soulstone off, ie, unlikely. Or he can just charge it and hit it 3 times...

Alpha is a hugely limited and very rarely useful spell, compared to obey which is a hugely unlimited and very useful spell!

[Lucidicide]

Yes but when Marcus can make any model a Beast then Alpha them and then take an entire action with said model, Master, its as if Marcus himself gets 2 activations making it way more powerful than you are letting on. Especially when he can basically companion said model as it would be a beast and then activate that model and also taking that models activation from you. So its kinda like activating 3 times. Don't mean to argue i just don't think you explained it well enough by just saying its limited. Obey is actually very limited compared to alpha as you can only use it once per turn, it only gives you a 1 action or charge, and you cant do it to Masters for some reason which has also not been explained as of yet.

Yes, I stated it simplistically, but...

You can only do Alpha once per turn. Additionally, it requires you win at least two duels -- one to make the enemy Master a Beast, and the other to Alpha it. Additionally, although you do get to control that Master's activation, you are basically losing Marcus' with the exception of possibly some damage from a Strike that made the Master a Beast.

Also, Obey is once per turn per model. If you're facing something like Zoraida w/ a Doppelganger, you're likely to get Obeyed more than once per turn AND they can get a charge for that (1) Action. There is nothing else that will let you pull off Alpha.

I think there are a lot of limitations to Alpha, and many Marcus players won't use it with any regularity.

[Lucidicide]

I've used Marcus in over 50 games and never once used Alpha.

The problem with Alpha is you are trading 2 of Marcus' actions, for usually another models 2. And if you're doing it against a master it comes down to who flips higher on a soulstone, and if Marcus loses, he's just wasted his whole activation.

I have no idea how you can say that Marcus gets 3 activations, totally not seeing that one! And to companion it, it has to be a beast when they activate, which it isnt, or in baby Marcus then he has to Feral (0), Alpha (2) and then (0) to let it activate, using at least 2 soulstones to get Feral and Alpha off, and both HAVE to get off, which are both on a soulstone off, ie, unlikely. Or he can just charge it and hit it 3 times...

Alpha is a hugely limited and very rarely useful spell, compared to obey which is a hugely unlimited and very useful spell!

Well, it is like Companion in that it immediately activates. It unlike Companion in that Marcus really won't be doing much of anything but burning one or more likely two soulstones.

The real strength is stealing their activation, in my opinion.

[NBmaster]

Funny one of the best players in our town, the guy i was playing, is an avid Marcus player wins every time he plays Marcus , and usually manages at least 1 if not several Alphas each game. He just waits till the end of the game when ss pool is drained. The 3 activates was his own, the Master he alphas, and then the fact that you don't get to activate the model if its done before said model activates, With obey it at least dosn't use up your ap/activation. Also Marcus has wp buffs, debuffs and a starting pool of 4ss to help him achieve all of this.

[Mike3838]

I'm not sure what your question is. You can do it to Masters because it doesn't say you can't in the ability. It's a different ability to Obey. All Masters have unique abilities - you may as well ask "why?" for all of them too.

Mike

[NBmaster]

Obey dose not actually say you cant do it to masters in the Obey description on the card, so it has to be something that was decided upon at a later date and then included in the rules manual. My point is that they are very similar spells so if one was essentially cuddled was hasn't the other. They are basically the same aside from having to turn a model into a beast and spending one extra ap. Just seemed odd to me and i wanted a RM, not just anyone, to explain why this was. I dont really seem any problem with having my own master obeyed at any point in the game, however i do have a problem with my masters activation being ripped from me just because i lost initiative and haven't managed my soulstones as well as i should have.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Obey on cards says nonmaster. As for obey you can have crews get multiple casts which your exchanging 1 AP to get a one AP action or a 2 AP action easily high return. Zoradia hits fot crap, kill joy hits like a Mack truck, my AP from zoradia for a charge action by kill joy huge return and I can do it from a far. Perdita can do it then jump back to be out of range from just about everything or she can launch a giant bomb at opposing crew again from a far. Obey is a great spell because it can be used from range and get a high return value and it has a large value to be used in friendlies.

Alpha range 8 compared to obey range 12". Most threat ranges are at 10" so I can be back out of alpha range but will have a harder time from being out of obey range. Feral and stare down will give you a great chance to get it off against a master but the master has to start within 8". Yea great if can do but if I know about it I can avoid it. Marcus can be a good master in a good players hand that has been proven but alpha is not the reason.

If you best player in your area is using that much it is not skill on his aide is lack of skill of his opponents. Frankly it is avoidable by almost every master. And I can't think of many minions that I would want to trade an activation with Marcus.

Now I am not saying alpha is bad the mere fact I can steal an activation of master is awesome, but I can do that with paralyze too. I am using paralyze as a comparison because that seems to be one of your arguments robbing your opponent of an activation. Now I know alpha gives their activation so you can use their AP. Paralyze like obey is available to almost all crews and in multiple applications, alpha is a one shot with a potentially big return, but a usually large lost. All the models that have obey and paralyze usually are not at a comparable lost on a failed attempt as Marcus is, this reason alone is why alpha is on par or even a sub par ability.

[Fading Memory]

Just seemed odd to me and i wanted a RM, not just anyone, to explain why this was. I dont really seem any problem with having my own master obeyed at any point in the game, however i do have a problem with my masters activation being ripped from me just because i lost initiative and haven't managed my soulstones as well as i should have.

First of all RM's don't just pop out of no where. RMs rely on the community to answer questions, and the Malifaux community has a strong/knowledgeable player base.

Second, I have a huge problem with my Master being able to be Obeyed every turn because if i can cast Obey on a Master, I will make sure I do it each and every turn as many times as possible. A Zoraida crew (with the right models) can cast Obey 5 times. That is why Obey is non-master. Do you want me casting Obey on your master 5 times?

Third, Soulstone management is part of the game. This is going to be blunt and a hard lesson to learn, but If you manage them poorly that is your fault and not a fault in the design of the game or abilities. Learning when to use and not to use them takes lots of experience. Even seasoned players will have difficulty at times on when and how to use them.

I'm not trying to sound harsh or be mean. Alpha is a very strategic and situational ability. Try proxying a few games (or buy) with Marcus. You will see that Alpha isn't the be all end all ability of Marcus

[NBmaster]

Sorry to want more info on why mechanics are the way they are. You have made some really great points, just seemed odd I guess and wanted to post up some questions this afternoon to get some discussion going on. I do feel that the skill level off our area could and will improve greatly, it just seems funny when people who talk all day long about marcus being tier 3 and Neverborn as tier 1 and one of the best players plays marcus regularly, and the neverborn players, my self included arnt that great. Just goes to show you its not who you play but how you play.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

But this is less of a rules question so probably wrong area to post thread.

Really I am seeing that there seems to be no way to satisfy you with a response. Simply it seems a skill level issue, an 8" ranged attack against neverborn (one of the fastest factions) should be able to avoid more times than not.

[NBmaster]

I'm am satisfied with the last few responses although I think some people got a little too defensive over what I had to say about alpha. This is a discussion page and I just wanted to see what others namely an RM could tell me about it. I see the reasoning behind it now although doppelganger and voodoo doll have pretty low ca and at times it can be really hard to get obey off as well, especially if you burn some cards to obey your own models first turn, or if marcus has put up his wp buff/debuff, but I see everyones point, I guess others dont share my dislike of Alpha and thats cool.

[Akujie]

NB have lots of WP debuffs of their own to make those obeys easier as well. Nothing quiet so sad as having my Judge/Sam/Exec go on a murder spree of my own team each turn because of -WP debuff or flip ><.

I also feel your pain on your marcus experience...I think the forums skew perception a bit. I had read how "underpowered" marcus was, and my first game against a marcus player (a good one btw) I was blown away, he hit his Sabotage first turn, I spent 3 turns chasing him around the board spreading my guys out trying to nail him down and the last couple turns having him pick off my guys who were now too spread out to retaliate against him. so even with all my resources devoted at him (i had assassinate btw, and he had bodyguard...yeah hindsight 20/20). Think we ended the game at him 5 and me 2. Player skill, oh crap factor (playing against a new model/crew), and strategy make all the difference

Edited November 12, 2011 by Akujie

[Adran]

Obey is already much more versitile than Alpha.

You can target your own models as well as all but one of your opponents, it doesn't take your entire turn, and while each model is limited to sucessfully casting it once a turn, unsucessfull attempts don't effect that.

Sure it doesn't count as activating that model, but it doesn't count as activating that model. (can be a plus or a minus when lookign at it)

I can get lots of obeys into a Zoraida crew that don't need a suited card, just a high card.(1 needing a 7, 2 needing 8 and any number needing a 10)

Alpha only works on enemy models. It only works on Beasts. If your opponent spends his entire masters activation to turn your master into a beast and Alpha you, and fails, then he has lost an activation in effect.

If you're playing a player who reagulally does this in the last couple of turns because you've used all your soulstone, don't use all your stones, save a couple to stop this in the last two turns. You can stop either the being beasted or the Alpha itself.

Sure, when it works its very powerful, but it is a huge risk and when it doesn't work your are probably in big trouble.

The rule marshalls are here to explain the rules in the book, not design decisions. I'm sure some of them were involved in the early rules work, but they weren't all.

My best advice, if you think something is overpowered, try using it yourself, you will often see how much effort and resources that actually have to be put into making it work, its often not as easy as it seems when you're on the recieving end.

To get a willpower debuff he has had to give Marcus fast. To be able to stare down you giving you on duels he will have had to already cast Vs your willpower (and because its a spell, he has to commit soulstone before you've even flipped a card).

Neverborne masters willpower is on average slightly better that Marcus's cast so it probably has cheated high and stoned it, and you might be able to beat it on a cheat without spending a stone. They also come with a larger cache than him.