Infinite Damage?

[SoulG]

So, I'm hoping there's something I'm missing about this. It wouldn't surprise me, since I have a tendency to do so. However, it would appear that Dead Rider (as printed in the book) is capable of performing an infinite damage combo by himself, as long as there is a piece of terrain for people to fall off of.

His mounted combat trigger, "Drag Along" allows him to, after hitting someone, push that model into base contact with him. However, because pushing allows for the model to take -any- path, can you not send them all across the board, off cliffs (potentially the same cliff) an infinite amount of times?

This also allows Nicodem to collect every corpse counter on the board simultaneously (have it attack him, have him be pushed over the corpse counters).

Both of these are, obviously, widely against the spirit of the rules if not the letter but--I know how people can be in tournaments.

[dsmiles]

Um...no? Unless it has an infinite Cg. Which it doesn't.

Mounted Combat pushes the Dead rider up to its Cg. Drag Along pushes the hit target until the end of the Mounted Combat action. I'm also not seeing where Pushing a model allows you to push it along any path. You would have to push it along the shortest distance to get it into base contact.

[Mr_Smigs]

I do recall a set of rulings about pushes that included diagrams showing that, yes, as long as you can draw a path to the end goal that's legal movement, then you do get to make the push.....

so, RAW it does seem to be made:

1. Activate Mounted Combat

2. Make Attack

3. Finish Mounted Combat maneuver

4. Push model to base contact.

the lack of "directly towards" implies a problem,

and at the very least, with a hill handy, the Rider could drop someone off a cliff/building...

[dsmiles]

Perhaps a change to those rules is in order. It seems like "push into base contact" implies (and should be) a straight line.

Perhaps this should be pointed out to a RM. Infinite damage combos should probably be nipped in the bud.

[SoulG]

Agreed. Adding "Directly" would fix the problem, as would turning it into a placement effect (thematically the person is picked up by the scyth and almost carried). I would actually recommend the latter, since it nips all potential abuses in the bud.

[lastakodo]

yes you can push the dragged model across the whole table. So you could give Nicodem all the corpses. As far as taking them through and off terrain you have to remember that since there is no limit to the distance the model may travel (ie it doesn't say push the model X") then they will climb any climbable surfaces. Although you could still push them trough flame walls etc.

I agree though this seems it should be a 'directly towards' situation.

[poulpox]

The problem with directly towards is it would become difficult if obstacles are partially on the way. I think "towards" is sufficient

[Mike3838]

Both of these are, obviously, widely against the spirit of the rules if not the letter but--I know how people can be in tournaments.

Even in tournaments this would be outrageous, and I couldn't see anyone trying it on. Letter of the rules or not, no self respecting Tournament Organiser would allow blatant cheating like this.

Mike

[dsmiles]

Even in tournaments this would be outrageous, and I couldn't see anyone trying it on. Letter of the rules or not, no self respecting Tournament Organiser would allow blatant cheating like this.

Mike

Problem being, it's not "cheating" if it doesn't violate the rules as written. Just like a FILTH list or an Alp Bomb isn't cheating, it's just poor sportsmanship.

Which is why there needs to be a better wording on the card.

[rascally]

Pushes ignore movement penalties. Hazardous terrain is certainly a movement penalty so wouldn't count, and I suspect that climbing/falling would also be included and therefore no wd's could be inflicted by a push.

[Mr_Smigs]

Pushes ignore movement penalties. Hazardous terrain is certainly a movement penalty so wouldn't count, and I suspect that climbing/falling would also be included and therefore no wd's could be inflicted by a push.

damage is not a penalty, it's an effect.

tho, now we're getting into definitions.

by your logic, Scout could jump off a 30" building and take no damage... because 30" of falling damage is definitely "severe" and thus ignored...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Mr smigs is correct. Severe and hazardous terrain are 2 different things.

[Q'iq'el]

Perhaps a change to those rules is in order. It seems like "push into base contact" implies (and should be) a straight line.

It doesn't.

Push Directly Towards implies straight line.

Push Towards implies shortest possible route (with option to avoid any Terrain).

Push gives you complete freedom of movement.

Remember that pushes happen not only when someone gets "pushed", but also as a free movement allowing models to bypass Disengaging Strikes (for example extra movement from many triggers, so it's generally a bonus). In this later case the models "push" themselves and there's no need to limit their movement options.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Therapist]

If you want to run him off a cliff ten times with infinite move then why cant he climb down with that infinite move and take no damage? Theres nothing saying if youre being pushed you are forced or obligated to jump off cliffs, right?

[Mr_Smigs]

If you want to run him off a cliff ten times with infinite move then why cant he climb down with that infinite move and take no damage? Theres nothing saying if youre being pushed you are forced or obligated to jump off cliffs, right?

because the model/player performing the push makes the decision.

[Buhallin]

because the model/player performing the push makes the decision.

This isn't really correct. In previous discussions about pushing for Lure, they've said that it's not really any particular player's choice - it's more an automated effect of the system. It's not a stretch here to think that destination pushes take a neutrally acceptable path, which wouldn't include looping for an infinitely long series of falls for infinite damage - or, for that matter, simply doing infinite laps around the board without ever actually reaching the destination before time expires or your opponent punches you in the face.

Not that I expect that to satisfy anyone in this discussion, of course.

[Mr_Smigs]

This isn't really correct. In previous discussions about pushing for Lure, they've said that it's not really any particular player's choice - it's more an automated effect of the system. It's not a stretch here to think that destination pushes take a neutrally acceptable path, which wouldn't include looping for an infinitely long series of falls for infinite damage - or, for that matter, simply doing infinite laps around the board without ever actually reaching the destination before time expires or your opponent punches you in the face.

Not that I expect that to satisfy anyone in this discussion, of course.

link?

because the same could be said for Lure, Hammerstrike, or any other enemy pushing events...

[Omenbringer]

Luring models off of tall buildings/ cliffs has been a tried and true damage producer for a long time (great for getting Nino/Hans/Trappers off their perches).

I think it depends largely on the characteristics of the terrain in question; a tall straight sided building or cliff wouldn't be climbable from the steep side, so you would fall if pulled off of it or stop if pulled toward it (since it would be considered impassable from that side).

[Q'iq'el]

If you want to run him off a cliff ten times with infinite move then why cant he climb down with that infinite move and take no damage? Theres nothing saying if youre being pushed you are forced or obligated to jump off cliffs, right?

Not every cliff or wall is going to be climbable. In fact, the games I play almost nothing is climbable (it'd have to be a ruined brick wall, steep rocky slope or maybe a wall covered with thick wines). It's all up to the players.

[Q'iq'el]

link?

because the same could be said for Lure, Hammerstrike, or any other enemy pushing events...

It's been said about these events.

It all boils down to whether it's push, push towards or directly towards.

I can't give you any link right now, but if you check out the rules for pushing towards, you'll see the model being pushed can avoid any terrain - clearly the decision which path to select is up to the model being pushed (to a degree, because he still may have to take the shortest route avoiding terrain), unless it's a "directly towards" push.

[Mr_Smigs]

It's been said about these events.

It all boils down to whether it's push, push towards or directly towards.

I can't give you any link right now, but if you check out the rules for pushing towards, you'll see the model being pushed can avoid any terrain - clearly the decision which path to select is up to the model being pushed (to a degree, because he still may have to take the shortest route avoiding terrain), unless it's a "directly towards" push.

Pushing, in the Rules Manual is actually really vague on avoiding terrain and who chooses the path outside the towards/directly towards listing...