Drain Souls questions

[Mr_Smigs]

1. can a Master sacrifice themselves?

2. If Marcus Alpha's an enemy Master, can they choose to Drain Souls?

3. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, does he have to chose from the Marcus crew?

4. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, who's models take the WP penalty?

[Fetid Strumpet]

This seems like an issue where an elegance of design would be more important than the overly complex way we are trying to twist it round. I have not examined this element of the game all that closely, but, how OP would it be if the only restriction on the legal actions available to you would be that you couldn't take an action that sacrifices yourself, anything else would go.

It just seems that some of the explanations of rules are more complicated than the rule itself. Lure is also another prime example, with Ratty's diagrams they were very clear, but it still takes more time to comprehend other than something like "Push the target of this action it's walk towards the Luring model. The luring model's controller determines the path of the push." Please remember I'm not agitating for a change to Lure, I think it's fine, but it has been something that has caused arguments in the past because of the complexity of understanding all the interactions and permutations within the explanation.

[Sarsnick]

Wait as cotton pickin' minute, so, if we were to Obey a model with 5 wounds remaining, we could make it jump off a 6' cliff because it's not guaranteed to kill the model...?

There is always a chance a black joker might appear for the Damage Flip which causes no damage.

Also, who flips for falling damage? The rules say it's a normal damage flip but if I'm controlling the flip, a red joker would be horrible when Red Jokers are usually always beneficial for the controller of the flip.

[Spiku]

Sarsnick: When I'm shooting my own models to make sure they have 1 health for turning into piglets, or reducing Raph to 4wds, I absolutely hate red jokers ;D

Even more so if I am casting a spell that only requires a 4+.

Or when I am trying to out activate an opponent and red joker for the initiative.

Just like I am happy to flip a black joker on my defensive flip vs a spell on my own model, or when you have soulstoned an attack that is at 32, and I couldn't stop you getting a + flip

[Omenbringer]

Seeing as its a spell you could flip the black joker or not reach the cc. So you can use it as normal.

I am pretty sure this is incorrect.

[Lucidicide]

I am pretty sure this is incorrect.

Tis. You cannot cast spells that will kill you if you cast them. The cast isn't definite, but the result of the cast is. That's why Leveticus' card specifies what can kill him.

[Mister_Q]

Tis. You cannot cast spells that will kill you if you cast them.

The problem is that the Rules Manual doesn't say this. It only says a model may not use spells or talents that inflict enough Wds to take it to 0 Wds or less. A model inflicting Dg on itself is allowed (says so very clearly on p.44), as long as it's not from an attack spell. Now we've got some confusion as a rules marshal has ruled that this be handled differently, which makes for some unusual readings on some spells.

[JayBarlekamp]

OK, I have to admit, I am now officially confused. So, is it now illegal to have pere ravage or papa loco cast their respective spells twice (obviously killing themselves the second time?)

[Lucidicide]

The problem is that the Rules Manual doesn't say this. It only says a model may not use spells or talents that inflict enough Wds to take it to 0 Wds or less. A model inflicting Dg on itself is allowed (says so very clearly on p.44), as long as it's not from an attack spell. Now we've got some confusion as a rules marshal has ruled that this be handled differently, which makes for some unusual readings on some spells.

That's true. And hopefully it's on the FAQ/Errata document coming out. Of course, in your friendly neighborhood game you can play it however you want. But the RM has been changed based on Sketch's posts above.

OK, I have to admit, I am now officially confused. So, is it now illegal to have pere ravage or papa loco cast their respective spells twice (obviously killing themselves the second time?)

Yes.

[decker_cky]

I know this is a bit of thread necromancy, but I wanted to confirm with people that the answers in this thread have been reversed. The new FAQ includes the question:

"Can a model kill or sacrifice itself?

Yes. Unless the Talent/Spell causes a fixed number of wounds and those wounds would drop the model to 0 Wounds."

So Marcus uses Alpha to take over a master, then the master can sacrifice itself, giving Marcus' crew an extra soulstone? Which side drops in willpower after that?

Thanks.

[nilus]

"Can a model kill or sacrifice itself?

Yes. Unless the Talent/Spell causes a fixed number of wounds and those wounds would drop the model to 0 Wounds."

And by that sentence Papa Loco is still okay since his spell does a set amount of Damage not wounds. I believe that is the distinction. Or am I missing something

[Nagash1959]

I believe that because damage and wounds are two seperate terms them yes, if the spell causes a fixed amount of damage then it could still be cast, even if it would kill the model. Unlike Punk Zombies that cause a specific amount of wounds (and therefore cannot kill themselves with the spell)

[GTDemon777]

Decker, assuming that the alpha'd master is friendly for the sac, you receive the -1 wp, but does it really matter seeing as you just sac'd the enemy master?

[ukrocky]

Marcus is OP. Been saying this for over a year now.