Nekima, the expensive poorly modeled sibling.

[Akujie]

be pretty neat fluff wise, she grows tots to keep herself forever young

[Sliver Chocobo]

Here's to hoping they can grow into a Nekima. If we're talking chess, tots are pawns and Nekima's the queen. Sure, we can't get two of her into play at once (unlike real chess), but a replacement or, through the magic of grow, a bargain basement initial Nekima would be a wrecking ball.

Now, if only Lilith could actually mother more tots for the cost of some blood counters.

I don't think they will grow into her, but have more youg nephilim with triggers that require masks, one that let it Ignore armour would be good

[Sliver Chocobo]

be pretty neat fluff wise, she grows tots to keep herself forever young

I think I missed that bit and she has been young for over a hundred years already

[Akujie]

Yeah, but don't remember it being explained how she keeps her youth or if it is just natural to being the bad ass that she is.

[i_was_like_you]

I think, from the fluff in Twisting Fates, most of the Neverborn take forever to age, except when the event fast forwarded Candy's growth and whatever the story is of Zoraida not actually being Neverborn. I only read through it once. Feel free to read for yourself to glean more insight from it. I doubt it'll be clarified until book 4 or later.

[Frost]

I use Nekima all the time, even after the Nephilim Heart change, and I have no problem with her cost. When I can easily make a Mature Nephilim in one turn out of 5 points of models, she has already paid herself down to 8 points. If i decide to go with a full grow build, then she pays for herself almost completely. There are some combos that are dangerous for grow builds in general (Pigapults! *shake fist*), and when I think my opponent will field something that can hit me while I'm still feeding the babies, then I'll go with a different build.

The only thing I would do is change Nephilim Heart to be a bit more logical, as some of the stats it gives mask to don't correspond to any triggers/abilities on either model (unless this may change in the future).

[Kabosan]

So what do you all think abor Nekima being made a henchman? I have thought she would make a better henchman than a minion ever since I picked her up. And now with these changes I think it would be good for her to be elevated to henchman status. I think it is better for the fluff (all top neverborn hate each other especially lil and Nekima) and would allow her to be the grow list henchman and she could leave lilith to her own devises. Just my two cents what do ya'll think? Thats 7 tots and 2dmercs at 25ss sounds like an interesting crew to me.

I'd like to second this idea. I'm fairly new to the game (I've been playing a couple of months 1-2 games per week on the weekends) but I think I have a reasonable grasp of the rules and how to play. I own, and have played mostly Lilith, and proxied a few other masters.

I've been considering buying Nekima, but wasn't sure she was worth the cost (both $$ and SS) after proxying her a few times. With the recent changes I'm doubly unsure. I just got the twins and really can't justify Nekima over (or with) them in any of my lists now.

The idea of her being a henchman, frankly, excited me. In fact I'm going to see if I can get my gaming group to try this with the following:

1) 0 Henchman cache (this brings her on par ss cost wise with 8 ss 5 cache henchmen).

2) Nekima can only hire Nephilim (I figure this is a good limitation and nixes cheesy desperate merc lists; and fits the fluff better).

I love this idea because:

1) Use Soulstone fixes one of the biggest complaints with Nekima: Fragility (I don't think it will OP her in other lists as she will compete fiercely for Soulstones with other masters as I still wouldn't take her in a Lilith list because of this).

2) It fixes her into a specific list and playstyle like most henchmen and seems to fit RAI/RAW that the recent change has wrought.

3) It fits the fluff great. The first thing that came to mind was the story of her coming out of the forest with the horde of Terror Tots in the fluff. I thought when I read that "I want to play that!" but you just can't afford that much of a horde with a master, Nekima, and tots, you can if she's a henchman!

I'll see if I can convince my gaming group to house rule this for a few proxy games and, if they agree, let you know how it goes.

[Q'iq'el]

I use Nekima all the time, even after the Nephilim Heart change, and I have no problem with her cost. When I can easily make a Mature Nephilim in one turn out of 5 points of models, she has already paid herself down to 8 points. If i decide to go with a full grow build, then she pays for herself almost completely. There are some combos that are dangerous for grow builds in general (Pigapults! *shake fist*), and when I think my opponent will field something that can hit me while I'm still feeding the babies, then I'll go with a different build.

The only thing I would do is change Nephilim Heart to be a bit more logical, as some of the stats it gives mask to don't correspond to any triggers/abilities on either model (unless this may change in the future).

This has already been said, though. Of course it is true she pays for herself in a growth-oriented list.

The problem is she's a great model, an expensive model, a huge centerpiece to your crew and something some of us put real effort and time in to field. We'd like her to pay for herself in a list without single Tot or Young Nephilim in it.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[i_was_like_you]

This has already been said, though. Of course it is true she pays for herself in a growth-oriented list.

The problem is she's a great model, an expensive model, a huge centerpiece to your crew and something some of us put real effort and time in to field. We'd like her to pay for herself in a list without single Tot or Young Nephilim in it.

I'm failing to see that as a possibility. Sure, we could run her without Tots or YN, but why would / should we want to? If taking her with 3ss models maximizes her abilities and nets us larger models that pay off some, if not all of her 13ss, I don't see why we wouldn't want to gain the benefits. Even using her as a Henchman, I'm sure we'd be running her with some Tots and / or YN unless they gave her a new set of special forces to go with her.

Are people playing comparable models that have synergy with a model listed by name on their stats without some of those listed models in their crew or the ability to summon them?

What of Snowstorm or Ashes and Dust that were both mentioned earlier? I don't play either of them, so I'm just going off of the comparisons that were used.

Although, with a model like Ashes and Dust, going off of both its SS and $$ cost, since it does fit into at least two crews, Leveticus and Nicodem, without any extra effort, if someone already owned both masters, then investing in the model would probably be worth it. Didn't someone mention that Nekima works well with other Neverborn masters?

Edited October 26, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[Visquaz]

1) 0 Henchman cache (this brings her on par ss cost wise with 8 ss 5 cache henchmen).

..snip..

1) Use Soulstone fixes one of the biggest complaints with Nekima: Fragility (I don't think it will OP her in other lists as she will compete fiercely for Soulstones with other masters as I still wouldn't take her in a Lilith list because of this).

Am I missing something here? How would Use Soulstone help if she can't have any soulstones?

Isn't the Henchman cache both how many stones they can have, and how many stones "extra" they get when leading a crew?

[i_was_like_you]

Am I missing something here? How would Use Soulstone help if she can't have any soulstones?

Isn't the Henchman cache both how many stones they can have, and how many stones "extra" they get when leading a crew?

Sure is. That's why I threw out a number, in this case, 5, to be her Henchman cache. That may have been earlier in this thread or on another thread entirely, though.

Unless he intended, by giving her 0, to make her have to use Drain Souls on her crew to gain any soulstones at all.

[Adran]

The idea of her being a henchman, frankly, excited me. In fact I'm going to see if I can get my gaming group to try this with the following:

1) 0 Henchman cache (this brings her on par ss cost wise with 8 ss 5 cache henchmen).

After much pondering I see what you've done. Adding a master to the henchman effectivly will cost you 13 stones.

I don't think that the relationship is that simple.

It gives her no flexability on cost, she either hits the exact amount for the game, or wastes some stones.

It gives her no soulstone in the game.

Mind you I saw someone say they tried Nekima with use soulstone and she was an absolute monster, so possibly even a Reserve of 1 would be too good.

I think a reserve of 5 sounds overpowered. (Even for Neverborn) especially if you are expecting her to be growing models which already allows her more models than the game size.

[i_was_like_you]

But she would need to have soulstones left in order to actually warrant being a soulstone user.

A master with a low or no cache is fine because the master can keep up to 8ss that haven't been spent during hiring. A henchman, on the other hand, can spend their pool during hiring, but may only have up to that much left at the start.

Let's go down the list to see ss cost vs henchman pool:

Guild: Lucius, Governor's Secretary - SS 10, Henchman 4

Resurrectionists: Molly Squidpiddge - SS 9, Henchman 5

Arcanists: Kaeris - SS 8, Henchman 5

Neverborn: Collodi - SS 8, Henchman 7

Outcasts: Von Schill, Freikorps Leader - SS 9, Henchman 4

(Gremlins): Ophelia LaCroix - SS 8, Henchman 6

Now, there are plenty of arguments for each of these values, but I'll allow someone else to get the ball rolling. I've had an epiphany!

Instead of giving Nekima a henchman pool like the rest, what if we gave her an ability like Master of Nephilim that would, for all intents and purposes, work like the Dreamer's Master of Dreams, but for Nephilim she hires. Maybe adjust that number from the 5 the Dreamer has down a bit, but I'd recommend leaving it alone.

Why, you ask? I'll tell you why. The Dreamer may have a cache of zero, but that's because he comes with LCB, who would be at least a 13ss model on his own if he weren't a master. Same goes for Viktoria having a cache of zero and getting her twin, that can be resummoned later. Despite what we may think of some of the rules and / or rulings of this game at times, certain things are the way they are for a reason.

But, if not, we could still just Drain Souls three models turn 1 to gain 3ss, and Drain more later, if need be.

Edited October 26, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[Adran]

Ok, i'll bite.

You are right a henchman with reserve 0 is quite poor, and possibly pointless.

The henchman cost and reserve seem to be about 14. This is presumable the aproximate cost of a master .

I would say that Nekima is a harder model than any 1 of the henchmen there. Her cost does also agree with that. If she is better than them, how can you justify her coming with a greater cache/reserve than other henchmen?

You are already giving Nekima an extra ability for free. A Nekima with use soulstone when paired with master is worth more than 13 pts.

The Dreamer coming with a cache of 0 is a bit of a misnomer, as I've never seen a dreamer crew played without at least 1 nightmare, even if its just a daydream. (and its horribly rare that they don't get the full 5)

Your arguement also does nothing to explain why Leveticus, Hamelin and Sommer also have cache of 0.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Or her henchman cost less then her minion

[Calmdown]

Your arguement also does nothing to explain why Leveticus, Hamelin and Sommer also have cache of 0.

The explanation is pretty simple. It's for fluff reasons.

In Hamelin's case it's not an issue, as his power level warrants a cache of 0. In the case of Leveticus, he's also very strong but should probably have 2 SS. Somer needs more too no doubt (though Im not qualified to say how many)

No different than any other faction really. Ramos needs 2-3 more SS. Perdita, Seamus, and Nicodem all need 2 more. Rasputina needs maybe 1 more. Zoraida could easily lose 1, Pandora needs to lose 2. Caches were done much, much better in book 2, with the exception of Dreamer, for whom 5 (and his cache is 5, anyone who says different is playing it wrong) is ridiculous - he could stand to have 0.

Imbalanced SS caches is a major reason for imbalanced masters in Malifaux.

[micahwc]

I still think she is perfectly fine in a non-growth list, even with her recent changes. She can be obeyed, and she can debuff enemies wp. She works fine with Zoraida and Pandora and fulfills a role which both of these masters need, a melee focused minion with huge damage potential.

She gets more fun if there is three dimensional terrain on the board as it is not too difficult to throw things off of buildings with her.

While her defense is not great, it isn't really any worse than most large, high cost models. (Ryle, Peacekeeper, Mature Nephilim, Bad Juju, etc. ) She is very mobile and hits hard.

I even use her with Lilith in lists which have no terror tots or young nephilim. Companioning Nekima with brood mother will kill just about anything in the game.

[Cunning]

I'm fairly sure Outcast Masters get low/no soulstone cache to balance out the fact that all the outcast mercs are cheaper for them to hire.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Ok, i'll bite.

You are right a henchman with reserve 0 is quite poor, and possibly pointless.

The henchman cost and reserve seem to be about 14. This is presumable the aproximate cost of a master .

I would say that Nekima is a harder model than any 1 of the henchmen there. Her cost does also agree with that. If she is better than them, how can you justify her coming with a greater cache/reserve than other henchmen?

You are already giving Nekima an extra ability for free. A Nekima with use soulstone when paired with master is worth more than 13 pts.

The Dreamer coming with a cache of 0 is a bit of a misnomer, as I've never seen a dreamer crew played without at least 1 nightmare, even if its just a daydream. (and its horribly rare that they don't get the full 5)

Your arguement also does nothing to explain why Leveticus, Hamelin and Sommer also have cache of 0.

The outcast have a cashe of 0, because well they get more out them than other masters

Viktoria whirlwind paired and use soulstone, do you want anything more, in book 1 times I played I little of the twins. Manage to charge a group of four models and killed them all in that single charge, I use 4stones, but I killed them all

Levi, of you really want to kill somthing cast death's lessons, put the highest card second from the top, then cast a spell, cheat then cheat higher before stoning into that high number.

Hamlin is broken enough

Some'teath I don't think he needs them, it won't effect the rest of his crew in any way, by that I mead it won't make gremlins work any better

[i_was_like_you]

Ok, i'll bite.

You are right a henchman with reserve 0 is quite poor, and possibly pointless.

The henchman cost and reserve seem to be about 14. This is presumable the aproximate cost of a master .

I would say that Nekima is a harder model than any 1 of the henchmen there. Her cost does also agree with that. If she is better than them, how can you justify her coming with a greater cache/reserve than other henchmen?

You are already giving Nekima an extra ability for free. A Nekima with use soulstone when paired with master is worth more than 13 pts.

The Dreamer coming with a cache of 0 is a bit of a misnomer, as I've never seen a dreamer crew played without at least 1 nightmare, even if its just a daydream. (and its horribly rare that they don't get the full 5)

Your arguement also does nothing to explain why Leveticus, Hamelin and Sommer also have cache of 0.

Like I said, I was throwing out a number and letting other people roll with the math.

Giving her Mistress of Nephilim would probably work best, in my opinion.

As for comparing her to other Henchmen, I'd say she's closest to VonSchill in terms of helping her teammates, in this case other Nephilim (or at least tots and YN now) and lacking spells all together.

They both have (the ability to have) flight.

They both have instinctual.

His Nimble can save him the AP he needs to make another strike, melee or ranged, which is comparable to, if not better than, Nekimas Melee Expert. (His trigger of Reposition also helps save him movement AP.)

While we're on attacks, a 12" gun with a 3/4/5 trumps a 3" greatsword with a 3/4/6, even if it gets a to damage flips. You can't damage what you can't reach, and getting into melee range leaves her exposed. Maybe not to the model she engaged with that most likely doesn't have her melee range, but to all of its friends on their activations. Even if we wait until last to activate her, putting her in such a situation, we still have to win initiative to get her back out of the situation, either through moving or just plain killing the models that pose a threat to her.

VonSchill has 2 fewer wounds but has Armor +1, Magic Resistant 1, that may ignore damage from , , and effects.

His defense is only 1 point higher, at a 5 to her 4.

They both have 4 combat triggers that, thanks to her Neverborn Greatsword, are both just as easy to pull off, if one so chooses. I'd say VonSchill's triggers are more practical, but, as he has his split between his knife and gun, he has to be using the right one for the right effect. Nekima's triggers are very situational, as others have already discussed.

Edited October 26, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[Necromorph]

I'm fairly sure Outcast Masters get low/no soulstone cache to balance out the fact that all the outcast mercs are cheaper for them to hire.

Besides the fact that Levi uses Alyce, Levi and Hamelin can't take any of the Outcast Mercs (desperate Mercs don't count because they're 2ss for everyone). Gremlins can only hire McTavish. You could make the argument for Viks, in which case it makes a little sense at least.

However, (this is all just speculation and I know none of the Outcasts have a chache, but just to put it in perspective) Hamelin has a cache of 0. Dreamer has a cache of 5 (as Calmdown said, it's pretty much a given or something is wrong). Now, I realize they are both very powerful masters, but I would put the Dreamer a bit above Hamelin if I had to rank them on a scale...yet he has a 5ss chache and Hamelin has 0. Similarly, you are getting 2 masters with the Dreamer, just like you get 2 masters with the Viks, but the Viks have a 0 cache (not saying they or Hamelin need a chache) but something seems a bit off about that especially given the Dreamer's power level. To tie it in, the same could really be said for Nekima if she became a Henchman...the hell would a model like that be doing with a cache when other things have limited or no caches.

I'm not saying it's not balanced in other ways, but if you're trying to justify the ss chache of masters, things like that kinda throw the whole thing to hell.

[i_was_like_you]

So, instead of applying an upgrade to henchman rule on Nekima, we could just upgrade her to a master with a SS cache of 0. Sound fair and balanced? No special forces rules to worry about. No hiring her with Lilith except in a brawl. And everything else that goes with being a master.

[Kabosan]

To be honest, in my zeal over the idea of the Nekima Henchman Terror Tot horde, I seem to have forgotten the henchman cache rules. Looks like making Nekima a viable Henchman may be more difficult than I had hoped. Most of the solutions I can think of are pretty clunky. It looks like now what I'm looking for is some fun modifications for a houserule game and not a real solution, but here goes. (Not giving up on this because I really want to play the scene from fluff with my friend who plays a Sonnia crew.) In that case maybe I should move this to a new thread?

I agree that giving her a normal sized henchman pool probably OPs her, but I'm not sure what to do about it. The thought that maybe I had intended Drain Soul to be the way for her to get soulstones I think is a good (if unintended) solution. The biggest hardship I can see is not that she wouldn't start with any soulstones, but that any soulstones not used to hire crew would simply be wasted. Also, someone else commented she works well in Pandora and Zoraida crews pretty well as is and adding Use Soulstone would OP her there.

I would propose an ability like this:

Doesn't play well with others: This model may only use soulstones gained from the Drain Soul action. When hiring crews this model may add up to 2 soulstones not used in hiring models to her soulstone cache. These soulstones count as being gained from a Drain Soul action.

This might make her workable as a Henchman but it is pretty clunky.

On a side note, the problems I've had with her being fragile (in my admittedly short experience) have less to do with her 4 Df and more to do with her 4 Ht. I can usually find somewhere to hide my Ht 3 Mature from the big, scary ranged monster until it can unleash hell in melee but I have a much harder time hiding my Ht 4 Nekima until she can unleash hell in melee.

[Kabosan]

Oooh! I like your idea too i was like you. hehe

[Q'iq'el]

Perhaps if she had some way to generate Soulstones from the killed opponents? Maybe a trigger, which gives Soulstone instead of Blood Counter?