Dreamer Change thought

[011121]

Let me attempt to make an argument for limiting the number of daydreams you can have at the start. Here as I see it are the salient points-

1) the ability, from the first turn, to strike across the length of the table, and return all in a single activation is I believe the tipping point of the dreamer from good to broken. This has to be addressed in order to re-balance him. Limiting the number of daydreams at the start of the game prevents him immediately being able to do so.

2) the same maneuver is not broken if it costs significantly to pull off. In this case the dreamer player can pull it off by spending actions and soulstones to summon additional daydreams. There are other masters who can make ridiculous alpha strikes if given time to build up/prepare (Hamelin leaps to mind doing a naughty little jig), the key is that the opponent at least has some ability to disrupt this preparation or can try to build up a VP advantage before it hits.

3) tactical choices are the bread and butter of a game like this. Limiting the daydreams increases the tactical choices, rather than limiting them. Specifically in this case the dreamer player has the choice of launching a fast attack that cannot immediately retreat or of waiting until he has sufficient daydreams available to make a guerrilla strike.

4) as much as possible it is desirable not to change core mechanics of the dreamer. Changing the number of totems he can hire is about the most peripheral thing I can think of doing that would have a chance of working. It doesn't require any relearning of complicated abilities. It does not in fact change how he works at all, it just delays it

5) similarly as much as is possibe the flavor and concept of the dreamer should be maintained. Any change that made him not an ambush predator is undesirable. What is needed is something that simply prevents him being quite so killy at being an ambush predator.

This is why I think my solution is a good one.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If he drops his whole crew he doesn't need to retreat, but even if we accepted that it was the out that was the issue, a point I disagree with, all that limiting his ability to hire Daydreams at the start of the game to 1 does is require he get a 10 of Masks to achieve the in and out in one activation, as summoning the Daydream is a 0 action, and in the classic strike the Dreamer only uses one of his 0 Actions.

[Q'iq'el]

I see how Dreamer is a "good enough" to kill most things in melee and that may be an issue. I don't see how he is anywhere near the Lady J league. Even Lilith leaves him behind a bit, though he definitely makes up for it in avoidance and mobility (while losing on passive abilities).

It may be that he's too good at melee, he definitely isn't the top melee master in this game. Just compare the stats, the melee abilities and weapons other dedicated combat masters have.

And to preempt the only argument I see popping up - paired weapons are worth far more on minions than on masters. to damage on the other hand is what you really want on your melee master - Lilith gets :+fate on charge, Lady J can go up to :+fate:+fate (though other buffs may be smarter when she can get a charge). LCB won't even be charging his opponents that often, so he's left with a chance to get high total difference - far less reliable and more resource-intensive way to get things killed, IMHO.

[Lucidicide]

I agree that he isn't the best melee master, but he is one of the top melee models. And that's disheartening when he's also good at so much else.

Regardless, I don't think any of that needs to change.

I don't think that limiting his Daydreams on turn 1 changes enough. The long bomb doesn't even require two Daydreams. It just limits your option to pull out once its over, and even that it barely does.

[Akujie]

I would be willing to argue he is one of the best melee masters, it all depends on your criteria. If your looking at strait damage, the ability to make damage hits, then yeah, he is below J and lillith and maybe even MC, Viks and Marcus. But he is a melee master that can realisticly spend 2 AP each turn from turn one on making melee strikes, he is an extremely effective melee master. Then he can retreat back to his own deployment zone. turn 1 lillith...walk walk walk. turn one lady J...walk walk...turn one viks, walk walk walk walk...etc, etc. Yeah, if LCB goes toe to toe with lillith his 5 cb will hurt against 8 def, or Lady J may punish him with reposte. but for the 2 - 3 turns Lady J trudges and 2 turns lillith trudges to catch LCB he is either harrassing them with strikes and falling back or killing off high point minions.

So is the best melee master one who can choose his targets, kill them and be back home or the one who can kill what ever the opponent throws at them?

and thats just melee v melee. looking at melee v squishy caster types (the other half out there) that 5 cb 3/4/6 with trigger on any suit paired SS ness is not to shabby vs there 3-4 DF and his long strike ability, where as lillith and lady j need to rush through the obstacles your opponent throws up, and as you move to position, your opponent has the chance to do the same.

Anyhow with all that said, not saying I have enough play experience to decide if dreamer is OP or not, but I agree that daydream trick to pull him back to his deployment is wicked, and the idea's to stop that jive ok with me, hate to see him hamstrung though (although in malifaux <and most tabletops in general> movement is king for most strats)

[karn987]

I agree that he isn't the best melee master, but he is one of the top melee models. And that's disheartening when he's also good at so much else.

Regardless, I don't think any of that needs to change.

I don't think that limiting his Daydreams on turn 1 changes enough. The long bomb doesn't even require two Daydreams. It just limits your option to pull out once its over, and even that it barely does.

In all curiousness and not trying to be an jerk etc... what else do you see him really doing?

To me I see him doing 3 things listed from greatest to smallest:

1) Providing Movement support for his crew.

2) Melee power-house

3) Minor crew support from Rapid-Eye Movement and his debuff spell.

Now literally, the Dreamer himself only does 1 and 3. While 3 is generally a small impact, 1 is huge as we all know. Considering most masters in the game do 4 or 5 things... it's not a stretch to say that it's fine with him doing all 3. Especially where he has to enter into some clunky situations to perform 1 and 2 at the same time (just like the other masters). Now I do admit that he has it a bit easier then say Colette or Lilith for 1, but for number 2 he does it far less efficiently then the other melee power-houses. Actually out of all the Masters in the game that you would really call a melee power-house or a melee centric Master... he is the weakest at it. BUT that movement support gives him the speed they lack. So in essence, he is the weakest of the melee focused masters but he is also the fastest.

So after that bit of rambling, my point is that he is extremely focused in what he does... he really does very little besides 1 and 2 though there are some solid applications of them that give you a bit more. So after a rather long path... I think we agree for the most part Luc

Any circling back.... there have been a lot of good suggestions but we are still spinning our wheels a bit. Before we can consider what to do... we need to know what we are going to deal with. We need to treat the source and not the symptoms or you end up with what Nikema suffered when there were better options (holding my tongue on this).

So that said... what are the real issues? Without agreeing on these we'll just keep going down diverging paths. What is to much and what is really fine? So here is what I've seen said, agreeing with them or not.

1. The Distance he can cover in a turn.
   
2. The Immediate Activation of LCB.
   
3. The relative ease of his spells (needing only low cards)
   
4. The placement distance of Nightmares.
   
5. The placement distance of LCB himself.
   
6. His Cache.
   
7. LCB Himself is to strong (taken in isolation)
   
8. LCB Himself is to strong (taken in consideration with the Dreamer's abilities)
   
9. The Distance he can cover in a turn AND drop Nightmares at the end (including LCB).
   
10. The Distance he can cover in a turn AND drop LCB (forget other Nightmares, LCB = whacked yo)
    
11. The ability to escape to relative safety after several attacks from LCB (fascilitated by Daydreams).
    
12. The ability to escape to relative safety after the long bomb (28"+) with no chance for the enemy to activate (Fascilitated by Daydreams and Companion ruling).
    
13. The ability to escape to relative safety after the long bomb (28"+). Doesn't matter if there is an activation inbetween or not, just the ability to do this.
    

I think that is all... add more if you can think of any others.

So obviously all of these can't be what is really pushing him over the edge. So which one(s) of these are the breaking point? I think we need to focus on that truthfully and find some way to come to a consensus. We've got the potential right now for finding the key to this puzzle and if we can focus our-selves, we can find and verify a better solution then any 1 person could.

So I'd like to try and shift things back to, what is the real issue here and which one(s) are pushing him over the edge?

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987

[Lucidicide]

In all curiousness and not trying to be an jerk etc... what else do you see him really doing?

To me I see him doing 3 things listed from greatest to smallest:

1) Providing Movement support for his crew.

2) Melee power-house

3) Minor crew support from Rapid-Eye Movement and his debuff spell.

Now literally, the Dreamer himself only does 1 and 3. While 3 is generally a small impact, 1 is huge as we all know. Considering most masters in the game do 4 or 5 things... it's not a stretch to say that it's fine with him doing all 3. Especially where he has to enter into some clunky situations to perform 1 and 2 at the same time (just like the other masters). Now I do admit that he has it a bit easier then say Collete or Lilith for 1, but for number 2 he does it far less efficiently then the other melee power-houses. Actually out of all the Masters in the game that you would really call a melee power-house or a melee centric Master... he is the weakest at it. BUT that movement support gives him the speed they lack. So in essence, he is the weakest of the melee focused masters but he is also the fastest.

Yeah, to me it's not about him being super beatstick or super support. I think the idea is that Masters can fulfill a variety of roles in a crew. Usually its support or combat. If we rated every Master in the game from 1 to 10 in each ability, I think the combined score of the Dreamer/LCB would be the highest in the game. That's really what I was getting at.

So that said... what are the real issues? Without agreeing on these we'll just keep going down diverging paths. What is to much and what is really fine? So here is what I've seen said, agreeing with them or not.

1. The Distance he can cover in a turn.
   Honestly I don't think this is the problem. As Ratty pointed out (and others), many people can go really far. The Dreamer might be the best at it, but that's not the problem in and of itself.
   
2. The Immediate Activation of LCB.
   This might be a problem, but I don't think it's the key problem. I think if other things are adjusted, this will naturally become less of an issue.
   
3. The relative ease of his spells (needing only low cards)
   This is one area I think you'll get a lot of debate on. The Dreamer can cast spells easily, which lets him do pretty much everything he wants in a turn. However, as you point out, the Dreamer aspect himself does very little but the movement. If we make that hard to do, that model becomes a bit too hit or miss. If anything is adjusted related to the difficulty of spells, it should be on LCB/Daydreams.
   
4. The placement distance of Nightmares.
   It's like a special form of summoning. I think this would be a specialized change that doesn't help too much.
   
5. The placement distance of LCB himself.
   I don't think the distance is a problem if the Nightmare distance isn't a problem. It just gets bad because of abuses you can do with bury and unburying to get him very far into combat and then right back out. The distance itself isn't the problem, though.
   
6. His Cache.
   I would be hard pressed to see how anyone could say he deserves a cache of 5.
   
7. LCB Himself is to strong (taken in isolation)
   If he had to walk, no one would be scared of him.
   
8. LCB Himself is to strong (taken in consideration with the Dreamer's abilities)
   I don't think this one either. Dropping off LCB across the board isn't that big of a deal if he had to stay there and didn't also have the rest of his crew.
   
9. The Distance he can cover in a turn AND drop Nightmares at the end (including LCB).
   This definitely ends up being an issue.
   
10. The Distance he can cover in a turn AND drop LCB (forget other Nightmares, LCB = whacked yo)
    Eh.
    
11. The ability to escape to relative safety after several attacks from LCB (fascilitated by Daydreams).
    This is definitely a problem.
    
12. The ability to escape to relative safety after the long bomb (28"+) with no chance for the enemy to activate (Fascilitated by Daydreams and Companion ruling).
    Yeah, that's crazy.
    
13. The ability to escape to relative safety after the long bomb (28"+). Doesn't matter if there is an activation inbetween or not, just the ability to do this.
    This too.
    

So I'd like to try and shift things back to, what is the real issue here and which one(s) are pushing him over the edge?

To me, it really is a combination that makes him so special.

The idea of discarding cards to drop additional nightmares is a way to preserve the distance and mechanics without letting him have a stellar turn the unburies. I'm not sure that's the best mechanic.

The idea of limiting the Daydreams AP in some way definitely limits some of the guerrilla warfare of the Dreamer.

The idea of giving activations in between the bombing is a way to mitigate the unreactability and add in some risk for the Dreamer.

Overall, I think the solutions are already on the table. I think it's just a matter of picking the right one(s) and making sure they are worded perfectly.

[Fetid Strumpet]

For me, given what you have said it is a combination of both 9 and 5.

The then being able to pull out is just insult to injury because even if he were forced to stay you'd still have a Dreamer with a large Cache sitting in the middle of a group of Nightmares, (IE the reprisal strike we all want to be able to take is still not going to happen because you'll need to kill all nightmares around him first, before they kill you).

Actually refining on what PGB samurai said, and trying to take into account Karn's fears of positioning issues if they were ruled to have to be B2B on replacement, why not center to center, IE whenever one comes out it must always be directly on top of where the other stood. It gets rid of the shenanigans of the Dreamer shuffle, and while true positioning becomes a little more of an issue it is less of one than if you had to have a complete 50mm of empty space next to the Dreamer, you'd only need 20mm of empty space directly around him. Perhaps word it in such a way that if something was in b2b with one or the other, the other of the pair would also be in b2b? That coupled with a static SS cache of say 2 might be something I could live with. What are your thoughts Karn?

[Dracomax]

What about just making the daydream cost:S?

that way, in order to use it the first time, it requires summoning, and in order to use more than one, it would require at least 2 turns.

[Lucidicide]

What about just making the daydream cost:S?

that way, in order to use it the first time, it requires summoning, and in order to use more than one, it would require at least 2 turns.

Regardless of balance issues, I think you'd find a lot of people who purchased the models to complain about that. The chances of you ever summoning 3 (and paying the SS for that) are basically non-existent.

[Dracomax]

Regardless of balance issues, I think you'd find a lot of people who purchased the models to complain about that. The chances of you ever summoning 3 (and paying the SS for that) are basically non-existent.

Given that his cache is usually gonna be 5, and that he will effectivly be getting his totems for a soulstone each, I don't see an issue there. maybe make the card cost easier, but I was under the impression it wasn't that difficult. If they'll pay more for them at start, the only reason they have to complain about being asked to spend less in game is that they can't do first turn long bomb and return.

I think the same people are going to complain if you make the daydream less useful in any way.

[Lucidicide]

Given that his cache is usually gonna be 5, and that he will effectivly be getting his totems for a soulstone each, I don't see an issue there. maybe make the card cost easier, but I was under the impression it wasn't that difficult. If they'll pay more for them at start, the only reason they have to complain about being asked to spend less in game is that they can't do first turn long bomb and return.

I think the same people are going to complain if you make the daydream less useful in any way.

True, no matter what, some people will complain about a change.

However, here we're talking about Daydreams which come, as I recall, packaged in 3s. A 6ss spend in game is a lot to ask of anyone. Sure, a cache of 5 makes that easier, but if you want to use all 3 DDs, you're going to have at most a 2ss cache, and that's assuming you maxed yourself out.

Like I said, it has less to do with the mechanics and more to do with the models here. I think if you changed them to Cost S, you'd have to make it only cost 1ss or something to summon.

[Dracomax]

True, no matter what, some people will complain about a change.

However, here we're talking about Daydreams which come, as I recall, packaged in 3s. A 6ss spend in game is a lot to ask of anyone. Sure, a cache of 5 makes that easier, but if you want to use all 3 DDs, you're going to have at most a 2ss cache, and that's assuming you maxed yourself out.

Like I said, it has less to do with the mechanics and more to do with the models here. I think if you changed them to Cost S, you'd have to make it only cost 1ss or something to summon.

I am probably mistaken, but I thought they did cost only 1 ss + CC to summon.

I could support making them 1 ss to summon at that point though. Off the top of my head, it seems like it would be balanced. I don't want to get rid of daydreams, after all, I want them to be less of a threat before the other player even has a chance to move.

[Lucidicide]

I am probably mistaken, but I thought they did cost only 1 ss + CC to summon.

I could support making them 1 ss to summon at that point though. Off the top of my head, it seems like it would be balanced. I don't want to get rid of daydreams, after all, I want them to be less of a threat before the other player even has a chance to move.

I just looked it up, in Book 2 it's 2ss.

As a summon only, 1ss is reasonable, I'd say.

[karn987]

For me, given what you have said it is a combination of both 9 and 5.

The then being able to pull out is just insult to injury because even if he were forced to stay you'd still have a Dreamer with a large Cache sitting in the middle of a group of Nightmares, (IE the reprisal strike we all want to be able to take is still not going to happen because you'll need to kill all nightmares around him first, before they kill you).

Actually refining on what PGB samurai said, and trying to take into account Karn's fears of positioning issues if they were ruled to have to be B2B on replacement, why not center to center, IE whenever one comes out it must always be directly on top of where the other stood. It gets rid of the shenanigans of the Dreamer shuffle, and while true positioning becomes a little more of an issue it is less of one than if you had to have a complete 50mm of empty space next to the Dreamer, you'd only need 20mm of empty space directly around him. Perhaps word it in such a way that if something was in b2b with one or the other, the other of the pair would also be in b2b? That coupled with a static SS cache of say 2 might be something I could live with. What are your thoughts Karn?

Well that is certainly a new way to look at it, and does solve some of the problems with the placing B2B, but it still has many of them. The biggest issue then becomes, it's to easy to make it so LCB can't come out and it increases the issue of trying to fit such a large base into assination positons.. He is such a huge part of the Dreamer that I think we should be warry with limiting where and how he can come out to much.

Basically, I don't think anything less than 3" will work simply because LCB is an Assassination type model. He needs to be able to get to his target and he can't rely on his own slow Wk to get him there. The Dreamer tends to reach a lot of the time when he goes in for the kill and personally, I think that is fine. I suggested the reduction to 3" to limit:

1) The distance of this.

2) The ability to get past all models in hte way while still letting him do this.

So I think it is very important that he still retains the ability to appear that little extra bit around models. From personal experience, I would not have been able to win a lot of games without this. At 3" it would become a lot more challenging and thats fine! I would still be able to pull it off, but B2B or right on top would have brought me a loss more then likely.

So I see a good reason to drop it to 3"... but I really don't see enough of a reason to make it b2b or on top of, I think that is going to far and treading into the realm we want to avoid. Especially when you take it into consideration with any other tweaks we'd agree on, it adds up reall yfast.

I wish I had more imperical evidence to back this up... its hard because it boils down to play expereince for vetting it. I can only really say, try it and see what I mean if my words aren't enough.

As for the cache, I will fully admit that I believe his is to high in light of other masters in the game. I also admit others are questoinably low but I've no real idea what the right number would be. 2 strikes me as a little low, I think 3ss would be fine mainly because I've had a lot of situations where I've needed 4 or 5 ss in a game.

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

Forcing the summoning of the Daydream doesn't fix the first turn strike though, because in a classic "kill your opponents crew on first turn in their deployment zone" strike the Dreamer only uses 1 of his 2 (0) actions, which means now in order to pull it off you are asking for a 10 of masks or a SS use in order to make it work.

I sort of like the story I could see behind it, but really it doesn't fix anything really, and it has the potential to create bad feeling. Not a winning combination I feel.

The thing it has going for it, and what I feel if the community as a whole should shoot for if it ever reaches some sort of consensus, is that it is a simple change that doesn't change mechanics across multiple cards, or change the basic rules of the game.

[Dracomax]

Forcing the summoning of the Daydream doesn't fix the first turn strike though, because in a classic "kill your opponents crew on first turn in their deployment zone" strike the Dreamer only uses 1 of his 2 (0) actions, which means now in order to pull it off you are asking for a 10 of masks or a SS use in order to make it work.

I sort of like the story I could see behind it, but really it doesn't fix anything really, and it has the potential to create bad feeling. Not a winning combination I feel.

The thing it has going for it, and what I feel if the community as a whole should shoot for if it ever reaches some sort of consensus, is that it is a simple change that doesn't change mechanics across multiple cards, or change the basic rules of the game.

It doesn't fix the first turn strike, no. But it does mean he can't pull anyone back with daydream on the first turn. It also means he has to make resource decisions to pull of a now much riskier attack in order to strike on the first turn before the opponents can react.

I think that would fix a lot of the issues.

[Lucidicide]

It doesn't fix the first turn strike, no. But it does mean he can't pull anyone back with daydream on the first turn. It also means he has to make resource decisions to pull of a now much riskier attack in order to strike on the first turn before the opponents can react.

I think that would fix a lot of the issues.

Also, if the Daydream doesn't start on the board, you can't announce it as a Companion.

But, I agree that I don't think it's the best solution.

[011121]

If he drops his whole crew he doesn't need to retreat, but even if we accepted that it was the out that was the issue, a point I disagree with, all that limiting his ability to hire Daydreams at the start of the game to 1 does is require he get a 10 of Masks to achieve the in and out in one activation, as summoning the Daydream is a 0 action, and in the classic strike the Dreamer only uses one of his 0 Actions.

Leaving his whole crew out leaves him very vulnerable to anyone with pulses or blasts. If he can't strike and retreat you can spread your models out a bit so he can only bomb one or two and the rest can then pounce. It means you have options.

As for the second part yeah i suppose he could use the 1 action instead of the 0 action to unbury LCB. Well you could limit him to having no daydreams to start or requiring his daydream to start the game buried. It's not as elegant as limiting him to just one.

[011121]

In all curiousness and not trying to be an jerk etc... what else do you see him really doing?

To me I see him doing 3 things listed from greatest to smallest:

1) Providing Movement support for his crew.

2) Melee power-house

3) Minor crew support from Rapid-Eye Movement and his debuff spell.

Highest terrifying in the game. Ability to heal himself by hurting the enemy. Damaging disengaging strikes over a 3" radius which combined with terrifying 14 over a 3" radius give him decent board control. Poison 2. Card/soulstone drain with disembowel.

those are all pretty significant (although some depend on the nature of the opponent, like terrifying).

[karn987]

Highest terrifying in the game. Ability to heal himself by hurting the enemy. Damaging disengaging strikes over a 3" radius which combined with terrifying 14 over a 3" radius give him decent board control. Poison 2. Card/soulstone drain with disembowel.

those are all pretty significant (although some depend on the nature of the opponent, like terrifying).

Yes but that all goes into him being a melee-power house. Those don't really effect anything else. They are not distinctly different things he can do, the Dreamer/LCB still fall into 2 rolls in the game and slightly into a 3rd. The point I was making is most masters do at least this if not more (refering to what meta [basically] that they fall into). Basically trying to point out, it's really not that strange and not really a point of being over the edge etc.

[011121]

Also, if the Daydream doesn't start on the board, you can't announce it as a Companion.

plus when summoned the daydream has slow.

[011121]

Yes but that all goes into him being a melee-power house. Those don't really effect anything else. They are not distinctly different things he can do, the Dreamer/LCB still fall into 2 rolls in the game and slightly into a 3rd. The point I was making is most masters do at least this if not more (refering to what meta [basically] that they fall into). Basically trying to point out, it's really not that strange and not really a point of being over the edge etc.

I really have to disagree with that. Terrifying and damaging disengaging strikes are about board control not melee damage. Poison is about damage over time and mobility (i.e. I can hit you and then go do something else because you're going to die without me having to actually stay and kill you which frees me up to poison someone else in the meantime). Card/soulstone drain are about...well card and soulstone management. Just because many of these things happen in melee doesn't mean they are about melee.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Karn, you feel he deserves a higher SS Cache than Seamus and Perdita? Really? I personally think Kirai's is too high and the Dreamer does what she does in regards to support and placement of crew, but better. Or is it your contention that too many masters in the game have too low a Cache and they should all be raised to a comparable level?

I regards to Chompy being an assassination model, I can understand your feelings on that, but then what is his balance? I know it isn't an exact parallel, but look at the Ikiryo, who serves as Kirai's Assassination piece. Sure Kirai can outactivate most opponents and then send in the Ikiryo for a strike, but the Ikiryo can't take on anything remotely survivable and hope to kill it in her two attacks she will get off the summoning. Plus she is going to have to hope for an initiative win if she wants to attack again before she gets swung at. And even if she gets the 3 attacks she usually dies right after that as her wounds are very low, and her Def is only average. Now sure Kirai can resummon her, but killing the Ikiryo is still a good idea because it prevents the wound and card cycling that reabsorbing the Ikiryo provides, and provides a definite drain on Kirai's wounds which she continually needs to refresh through other actions and other model's actions.

Chompy as an assassination piece currently has no balance to him at all.

He doesn't have to advance carefully to his target or risk dying. He doesn't have to risk any sort of counter attack, because he has multiple ways to escape off the board once he has done his strike, and doesn't even have to wait a single activation before he disappears. His alter half is one of the hardest masters in the game to pin down to even make an attempt at killing, and thereby forcing any realistic hope of killing Chompy from the mind of his opponent.

Now Personally I don't think the forcing the Dreamer to have to use his actions getting into place is a bad thing, especially as he has the capability to use 3 totems all of which can cast magical extension, twice each, in order to bring Chompy out. It makes his use more thought intensive rather than "I want that model across the board Dead. I use Chompy, and your careful positioning to deny me my attack is useless puny mortal MWHAHAHA!"

I think both ideas, of direct replacement and of a 3" range of the Dreamer both have merit for testing, and I will admit that although I feel the 3" move is too much, at least it does get rid of the Shuffle to some extent, which is the issue I have large issues with, and so it could be a solution that in the end is acceptable.

[karn987]

I really have to disagree with that. Terrifying and damaging disengaging strikes are about board control not melee damage. Poison is about damage over time and mobility (i.e. I can hit you and then go do something else because you're going to die without me having to actually stay and kill you which frees me up to poison someone else in the meantime). Card/soulstone drain are about...well card and soulstone management. Just because many of these things happen in melee doesn't mean they are about melee.

At this point it comes down to semantics. Yes he has flavors of other things in him and I was afraid somoene was going to pick this appart like you have. So fine, they have applications in other ways but Wicked is not really board control in the sense of real board control (ala Transposition) and you have to draw a line some where. Poison is all about being a melee model, same with Terrifying. I already stated mobility wrapped up into 1) from before. As for Card and SS drain, it is not dirrectly just pure that and it is again, wrapped up into his melee ability.

So while yes, if you want to take a microscope and pick it appart they are all that. But for the sake of the arguement, they are wrapped up into being a true melee beat-stick because a melee beat-stick in this game isn't just mono-tasking, especially on a Master level. There are always other applications for their primarily melee focused abilities. So yes, you are right to an extent, but it is not what i was speaking about.

Edited October 14, 2011 by karn987